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Post by defiant1 on May 26, 2010 21:51:16 GMT -5
Sadly, comics will not allow the characters to actually move beyond their flaws because they feel it would make the characters less interesting. I think Romita and Lee did an excellent job with Spider-man whether intentional or not. He was scrawny, timid and shy in the early part of the run. He bulked up, gained confidence and moved forward. The book had hit it's stride by the time Gwen Stacy died. The death of Gwen Stacy took the book into a toilet spiral. It had a lot of room to grow. I liked what they did in the 80's introducing the Back Cat & Deborah Whitman. I liked Captain America when he had a job as a policeman and always left his partner wondering where the hell he'd gone. The role of being a superhero and keeping it a secret is a built in conflict. It can be explored endlessly from different angles and still be interesting. df1
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Post by cyberstrike on Nov 10, 2010 7:40:55 GMT -5
The more screwed up my heroes are the more I like them.
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Post by cyberstrike on Nov 10, 2010 7:50:02 GMT -5
You are both missing my point. The new testamant is a story that is compelling to millions of people all over the world and yet it feature a character that is presented as being free of flaws. A writer does not have to make a character blatantly flawed to be interesting. A character can have quirky behavior and still be interesting. That isn't necessarily a flaw. He might have a reason for being quirky. I have seen documentaries and heard Biblical scholars that portrayed Jesus as a VERY flawed man even at times a very disturbed man in the Bible stories and with anything to do with the Bible is open to interpretation.
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Post by defiant1 on Nov 11, 2010 19:24:00 GMT -5
The more screwed up my heroes are the more I like them. To each their own, but I get bored reading about fuck ups, dwelling with fuck ups, and pondering about fuck ups. I see too many self-centered arrogant pricks in life and all they force me to do is prove I can be a bigger and better one if I so choose. I was inspired by characters that strive to be better people and have altruistic goals. Twisted personalities can work for me. I loved the Shooter character in the Dogs of War comics. He had noble motivations. The Machiavellian philosophy that the end justifies the means. Flat out fuck ups and idiots just annoy me. That includes idealized characters like Barney the Dinosaur. A moron. Too many stupid characters in comics. Then again, I couldn't stand TV shows like "I Dream of Jeannie" either. df1
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Post by defiant1 on Nov 11, 2010 19:34:39 GMT -5
You are both missing my point. The new testamant is a story that is compelling to millions of people all over the world and yet it feature a character that is presented as being free of flaws. A writer does not have to make a character blatantly flawed to be interesting. A character can have quirky behavior and still be interesting. That isn't necessarily a flaw. He might have a reason for being quirky. I have seen documentaries and heard Biblical scholars that portrayed Jesus as a VERY flawed man even at times a very disturbed man in the Bible stories and with anything to do with the Bible is open to interpretation. I'm not going to debate religion nor debate what others have conveyed to you about his character. Neither of us are going to change what the other believes. I don't really care if you think he's a flawed man. I know what he and his teaching means to me. He made an impact on the world that has lasted 2000 years. Who in your neighborhood will affect that many people in history? The conflict in the Biblical stories about him usually involve him saying "no" and walking away. There were no moronic shock twist endings where he killed everyone in Jerusalem to boost his book sales. The only anger he ever exhibited was turning over the tables of the moneychangers in the temple. Wow! He had a good reason. Man was intertwining the concept that money buys salvation. It's a flat out blasphemy. df1
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Post by bigw1966 on Nov 12, 2010 13:07:18 GMT -5
Flawed characters are more easily relatable because they are more like the rest of us. No one is perfect or free of flaws so when we saw Spidey/Peter going through all he was going through we could relate. when Romita and Lee did with him what you mentioned defient about giving him more self confidence and bulking him up were really just them saying ok he's going to college now so we need to mature him up a bit. which would show a natural growth of a person that we all experiece. Also his time under the mask built his confidence level because even though his more outward personality was evident while under the mask, taking it off doesn't cause it to go away, unless concious thought on the part of the character is used because he is worried someone will figure out his alternate identity.
characters without flaw are not to be trusted, because we know that the idea of perfection is an unobtainable idea. Its non-existant. Just like Maturity. you never stop maturing, just like you never stop striving for perfection. Even though both are unobtainable as an absolute.
which is probably why so many people are turning away from religion and becoming more secular. The reason that is has worked so long with Christ is because all people are taught from the crib to use him as a guidepost of what to strive for. Even though he is perfect because he is the son of God and therefore more than a man in comparison to other men.
this thinking has also been applied to Superman which is the reason that he is such a hard character to work on. when someone is perfect and all powerful they are also boring, because they have nothing to surprise you with. No challenges and nothing to overcome. Seeing someone strive against an obstacle and overcome it is what lets many people know that they can do it also.
Easy proof of that line of thought can be applied to peoples facination with celebrities. We put them on this pedestal as a guidepost of what we want, but then we only cheer when they are brought down to their lowest point. Therby giving us proof that they are no different than us.
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Post by defiant1 on Nov 12, 2010 15:59:04 GMT -5
Flawed characters are more easily relatable because they are more like the rest of us. No one is perfect or free of flaws so when we saw Spidey/Peter going through all he was going through we could relate. when Romita and Lee did with him what you mentioned defient about giving him more self confidence and bulking him up were really just them saying ok he's going to college now so we need to mature him up a bit. which would show a natural growth of a person that we all experiece. Also his time under the mask built his confidence level because even though his more outward personality was evident while under the mask, taking it off doesn't cause it to go away, unless concious thought on the part of the character is used because he is worried someone will figure out his alternate identity. characters without flaw are not to be trusted, because we know that the idea of perfection is an unobtainable idea. Its non-existant. Just like Maturity. you never stop maturing, just like you never stop striving for perfection. Even though both are unobtainable as an absolute. which is probably why so many people are turning away from religion and becoming more secular. The reason that is has worked so long with Christ is because all people are taught from the crib to use him as a guidepost of what to strive for. Even though he is perfect because he is the son of God and therefore more than a man in comparison to other men. this thinking has also been applied to Superman which is the reason that he is such a hard character to work on. when someone is perfect and all powerful they are also boring, because they have nothing to surprise you with. No challenges and nothing to overcome. Seeing someone strive against an obstacle and overcome it is what lets many people know that they can do it also. Easy proof of that line of thought can be applied to peoples facination with celebrities. We put them on this pedestal as a guidepost of what we want, but then we only cheer when they are brought down to their lowest point. Therby giving us proof that they are no different than us. A flawless character still interacts with flaws individuals. Conflict can still exist. Stan Lee was supposedly against weakening heroes to make a fight a challenge. I'm bored with murderers, policeman, lawyers and guns on TV. I'm bored with stupid characters. I bored with characters being heroic for years then going crazy one day and murdering an entire city like Green Lantern did. I really don't care about the reason or his motivation for the change. I have no interest in reading about it. df1
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Post by bigw1966 on Nov 13, 2010 12:03:01 GMT -5
I look at the whole character suddenly going crazy one day or killing characters to be a lazy writer or Editorial demand being pushed on us.
The only cop show I have watched in years on TV is Castle. I just like Nathan Fillion. I cannot stand any of that drek normally. which is probably why I like watching the nerd shows. LOST, "V", Human Target, Smallville.
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Post by G on Nov 13, 2010 12:55:30 GMT -5
If I see another Cop, Lawyer or Hospital show come out in ANY capacity, I think I am going to shoot my Plasma tv.
This shit was big when I was a kid in the 1970s. Adam 12, Ironside, Hill Street Blues, St. Elsewhere, Kojak, The Steets of San Francisco, Marcus Welby MD....
Shit, find another profession to write about. I'm tired of seeing people figure out how somebody got killed. I'm tired of cops finding bad guys. I'm tired of Doctors falling in love with other Doctors or some patient with some strange affliction they haven't never seen before. I'm tired of a show where some criminal gets off by some loophole in the justice system.
Fuck! Give me something else please! Everytime I see a trailor for a new show its like coming soon.....Dr. Evanovich Attorney at Law PHD Detective.
Shit, how bout a show about an artist struggling to make ends meet?
How bout a show about an inspector finding flaws and dealing with the crap that he deals with exposing the crap?
How bout a show about a bass player trying to make the band?
How bout a show about people in trailer parks trying to get a real home and dealing with other trailer parkers?
Shit, stop giving me ENDLESS cop shows! Fuck, I don't care who got killed! I don't care how they figured it out. Fuck, I hope the damn cop gets killed in the show....End of series! That would be awesome!
How bout the Doctor catches the disease and dies himself? Sweet!
How bout the Lawyer gets caught looking at child porn on his PC and gets thrown in jail with the people he threw in jail. Ah yes!
Prison Buttfuck, now on Thursday night at 9pm.
Geez, give me something new!
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Post by defiant1 on Nov 13, 2010 16:37:56 GMT -5
If I see another Cop, Lawyer or Hospital show come out in ANY capacity, I think I am going to shoot my Plasma tv. This shit was big when I was a kid in the 1970s. Adam 12, Ironside, Hill Street Blues, St. Elsewhere, Kojak, The Steets of San Francisco, Marcus Welby MD.... Shit, find another profession to write about. I'm tired of seeing people figure out how somebody got killed. I'm tired of cops finding bad guys. I'm tired of Doctors falling in love with other Doctors or some patient with some strange affliction they haven't never seen before. I'm tired of a show where some criminal gets off by some loophole in the justice system. Fuck! Give me something else please! Everytime I see a trailor for a new show its like comic soon.....Dr. Evanovich Attorney at Law PHD Detective. Shit, how bout a show about an artist struggling to make ends meet? How bout a show about an inspector finding flaws and dealing with the crap that he deals with exposing the crap? How bout a show about a bass player trying to make the band? How bout a show about people in trailer parks trying to get a real home and dealing with other trailer parkers? Shit, stop giving me ENDLESS cop shows! Fuck, I don't care who got killed! I don't care how they figured it out. Fuck, I hope the damn cop gets killed in the show....End of series! That would be awesome! How bout the Doctor catches the disease and dies himself? Sweet! How bout the Lawyer gets caught looking at child porn on his PC and gets thrown in jail with the people he threw in jail. Ah yes! Prison Buttfuck, now on Thursday night at 9pm. Geez, give me something new! Great rant! I agree entirely. In a similar fashion, I'm tired of vampires, zombies, conspiracy theories, the foreign speaking guy being mocked in situation comedies, glass being gratuitously broken in action movies, forced gay characters and themes in movies, robbing from last years headline for a plot, and more. The list of rehashed themes grows every year. df1
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