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Post by G on Nov 28, 2010 19:33:35 GMT -5
I died laughing when you posted "You know who you are." on your Twitter feed to the 90's creators. Kinda like the police saying "I'm watching you buddy!" df1 ;D Yeah, I've sent a few jabs at said creators and gotten no response to them in the past when I did send a jab or comment. They tend to like to respond to approval responses, but not anything that questions what they are doing. So, I threw that in there. It was totally an impulsive spur of the moment tweet.
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Post by cyberstrike on Nov 28, 2010 20:24:08 GMT -5
I'm a bit tired of being told that my time in comics was over when your generation came around. I didnt stop READING comics in 1990. I didn't stop knowing good comics from bad comics. I didn't lose the ability to judge comics. My money spent just as well as your money did in 1990. It may be true that the generation of new talent appealed to the new group of readers that cropped up back then, but I'd bet most of those readers are gone as well. Being hot back then didn't exactly mean it was good. Most of those books sucked. Yep, they sucked. OK the gloves are off. Well I for one am sick and tied of Silver Age shoved down my throat. I hate to tell you this: most of the comics you loved when you were a kid were and still are complete and total SHIT but then again so was most comics of the Gold, Silver, Bronze, Copper, Steel, Iron, Uranium, Platinum, or whatever other fucking metal Ages fans call the eras so are most comics today. I stopped reading comics in around the time Infinite Crisis came out because quite honestly I was not in the market DC wanted to attract, it was people older than me and I had quit Marvel years before because of the same. If you want to read bland boring heroes by artists whose best days are behind them more power to you. I don't. I want complex flawed heroes who have the same kind of problems that I have in their private lives I don't give a flying rat's fucking ass about fights (the whole heroes vs. villains stuff that shit bores me to death) by artists who can realistic looking people, beings, robots, or whatever. I want to see books printed in full computer color on thick glossy paper. Why? Because it looks right to me. If what I want in doesn't appeal to you and you think it's shit that's fine because quite frankly apparently what appeals to you is total shit to me. But then again it's a generational thing the kids who follow me (if any) will probably say the same thing about Cassady, Hitch, and Jones in about 20 years. Take it up with Corporate America not with me. I didn't promote, ask, or want Joe Quasada as Marvel EiC the same with Harris, DeFalco, or Shooter those were decisions made by the suits and by the people who got to job. It's the same with Khan, DiBio and now Harris at DC. They got the job because they wanted it (and kissed enough ass and sucked enough dick to get the job) or the people above them thought they were the best for the job. You're right a lot them can't run a company (and that has been proven many times by several of them) but that doesn't mean that shouldn't try.
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Post by G on Nov 28, 2010 20:49:56 GMT -5
I'm a bit tired of being told that my time in comics was over when your generation came around. I didnt stop READING comics in 1990. I didn't stop knowing good comics from bad comics. I didn't lose the ability to judge comics. My money spent just as well as your money did in 1990. It may be true that the generation of new talent appealed to the new group of readers that cropped up back then, but I'd bet most of those readers are gone as well. Being hot back then didn't exactly mean it was good. Most of those books sucked. Yep, they sucked. OK the gloves are off. Well I for one am sick and tied of Silver Age shoved down my throat. I hate to tell you this: most of the comics you loved when you were a kid were and still are complete and total SHIT but then again so was most comics of the Gold, Silver, Bronze, Copper, Steel, Iron, Uranium, Platinum, or whatever other fucking metal Ages fans call the eras so are most comics today. I stopped reading comics in around the time Infinite Crisis came out because quite honestly I was not in the market DC wanted to attract, it was people older than me and I had quit Marvel years before because of the same. If you want to read bland boring heroes by artists whose best days are behind them more power to you. I don't. I want complex flawed heroes who have the same kind of problems that I have in their private lives I don't give a flying rat's fucking ass about fights (the whole heroes vs. villains stuff that shit bores me to death) by artists who can realistic looking people, beings, robots, or whatever. I want to see books printed in full computer color on thick glossy paper. Why? Because it looks right to me. If what I want in doesn't appeal to you and you think it's shit that's fine because quite frankly apparently what appeals to you is total shit to me. But then again it's a generational thing the kids who follow me (if any) will probably say the same thing about Cassady, Hitch, and Jones in about 20 years. Take it up with Corporate America not with me. I didn't promote, ask, or want Joe Quasada as Marvel EiC the same with Harris, DeFalco, or Shooter those were decisions made by the suits and by the people who got to job. It's the same with Khan, DiBio and now Harris at DC. They got the job because they wanted it (and kissed enough ass and sucked enough dick to get the job) or the people above them thought they were the best for the job. You're right a lot them can't run a company (and that has been proven many times by several of them) but that doesn't mean that shouldn't try. Ha! Ha! Touche' ;D I'm not fighting YOU, I'm fighting the argument. And contrary to what you might believe, I don't love everything Silver, Bronze and Copper Age, nor do I hate everything from the modern age. I'm currently buying about 20-30 comics a month because I enjoy comics and want to give things a chance and I do find comics I still enjoy. Even today. I've been collecting comics since 1978. I didn't stop. I've loved and hated things from every era. What I don't like is a total disrespect for things that were good with comics and are totally disregarded now. I don't like creators giving us the same thing as they have in the past 20 years and expecting us to continue to eat it up. I don't hate glossy comic paper, computerized colors and all things connected to modern. I just want to see a better job done with the medium. I just want to see a better product. Sometimes we get it and I love it. But there are some creators peddling the same shit and expecting us to keep buying it even though the numbers are declining and should be telling them to try new things. They keep sticking with a formula that has kept their numbers declining. We're both free to have opinions. Feel free to voice them.
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Post by defiant1 on Nov 28, 2010 21:30:17 GMT -5
Your argument is well and good. By market estimates, there may be 40,000 people who feel just like you rotating around to whatever niche product appeals to them. On the flip side, there are hundreds of thousands of people who are not buying comics because they don't share your point of view. If every potential customer had a product in the stores that suited their needs, the industry would be healthy and we could both get what we want. I never cared for image products, but it didn't matter because products I did like were on the market. Essentially we are left with cheap, easy to produce product. I did a run of rough numbers the other day on my board. Based on the top 300 comics listing & dollars on the Comic Chronicles web site, Dark Horse is left with an average of about $17,000 per book after printing and distribution percentages are deducted. Out of that they have to buy ads (Diamond) , pay rent, pay production staff and management, pay artists, writers, colorists, letterers. web hosting. If you break down what that book money has to pay for, a large portion is consumed just to break even for a business model. The #1 obstacle publishers face is low print runs for their product. Would you be willing to let me have one fucking title on the market that I like at a big 4 publishing house? One? You seem quite pleased with several. I'm not complaining because my selection is limited. I'm complaining because a new comic I want to read doesn't fucking exist. The market can keep making comics for the dwindling market that will put them out of business. Why not at least try to tap the hundreds of thousands of fans who grumble that comics aren't what they used to be. df1
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Post by defiant1 on Nov 28, 2010 23:14:14 GMT -5
I died laughing when you posted "You know who you are." on your Twitter feed to the 90's creators. Kinda like the police saying "I'm watching you buddy!" df1 ;D Yeah, I've sent a few jabs at said creators and gotten no response to them in the past when I did send a jab or comment. They tend to like to respond to approval responses, but not anything that questions what they are doing. So, I threw that in there. It was totally an impulsive spur of the moment tweet. They can't see the forest for the trees. They work for a paycheck, so in their mind it's all the same if they spend 5 hours doing something right or spending one hour to get a mindless drone of a collector praising the ground they walk on. df1
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Post by defiant1 on Nov 28, 2010 23:27:47 GMT -5
So unless comics start appealing to people under the age of 25 again, those of my generation that are still into comics will be the last generation to enjoy comics.. Comics in the 60's and 70's were produced by knowledgeable people who succeeded in appealing to all ages. Their entire product line marketed comics. I wasn't buying Millie the Model, but I think it was damn cool it existed and someone did. Harvey were a fun, well drawn, read. I didn't buy them, but I was glad they existed and I was glad Harvey had a long running audience. Image Comics and all the look-alikes are the last thing comics need to appeal to a new generation. df1
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Post by G on Nov 29, 2010 10:37:03 GMT -5
Larsen is a nice guy. As far as his work goes, he has become more af a channeler of Jack Kirby these days. Just look at anything he does, and its like he is attempting to put Kirby on the page. I have not read Savage Dragon in years, but the few people I know who do enjoy it, say they do because it is done like an old school comic. Bright colors, fun action, over the top villains and Ideas and no angsty seriousness to it. Its just a comic for the sake of being a comic. I appreciate Larsen being influenced by Kirby and I can see he tries to emulate it in some ways, but it comes off as a cheesy representation of Kirby. Too many people hate Kirby these days and the ones that do copy his style tend to over exaggerate the Kirby look with jagged lines and silliness that doesn't suit their style as much as it did his. I don't think anybody really captures Kirby at his peak with him and Joe Sinnott in the FF years. There was about a 40-60 issue period there where the two of them just jelled and their books just rocked. Larsen does a better job than most at being dynamic. I actually find myself interested in his work when I see it. In fact, I almost bought Savage Dragon #168 as I filled out my monthly order last night. But when I seen the final tally on my bill, I had to drop a few things and he was one who I did let go of. I find myself wishing Larsen drew tighter much the way he did when he was on Amazing Spider-man. He had enough differences back then to make himself look really unique. And drew it tight enough that it could easily look well done. He was easily one of my favorite Spiderman artists during issues 300 - 400. Yes, I like his version better than McFarlane. I think I personally (just me) wishes he would get off Savage Dragon. He has gotten way too loose doing it and seems to be going through the motions. Maybe it's easy to him now. I know he can whip up a sketch like nothing. But that's the problem, his comics look like sketches now. I think he needs to be challenged again and Savage Dragon isn't doing it. He probably makes a decent living doing him and that's why he doesn't change, but the inner fan in me wishes he moved onto something different and with a lot more seriousness. Being silly isn't what I liked about old Kirby. I never really thought Kirby was silly until he went to DC.
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Post by bigw1966 on Nov 29, 2010 12:12:47 GMT -5
I agree Larsen could use some new challenges, but I never thought he drew tight as you put it. I always liked his work, but he seemed like a poor mans McFarlane to me. Doing Dragon actually allowed him to seperate himself from that. He also has an output like Romita jr.
As for what you said "G" about comic creators from your era not being EIC, Stan Lee begs to differ. So does Jim Shooter. And Paul Levitz and Archie Goodwin and Dennis O'Neil and Dan Didio. companies ALWAYS promote from within. Who better to have do a certain job that a proven commodity in the area?
Joe Q got the job for two reasons. 1. Event was one of the more successful indy lines from the 90's. He had multiple titles and they moved past the printed page which Joe was making a concerted effort at doing at the time unlike every other company. 2.) Then when he was hired to create the Marvel Max line which turned out to be pretty successful along with his friendly relationship with creators coveted by Marvel, well it was a logical progression.
Now I think there have been many positives over the course of time he has held his position, but I also feel that there are just a lot of constantly repeated mistakes that are holding the industry back.
I agree with Cyberstrike on almost everything in his post. Comics, when you look back on them, rarely hold up to the scrutiny of an older more intelligent mind. This line of thought goes back to what I have said regarding superheroes in general. I think Marvel needs to expand beyond them with some original non-hero books or adaptations of classic literature. But honestly, I don't see that ever happening there.
Another major problem, is Diamond Distribution. They need to be done away with. That company on its own is primarily responsible for the direction of the comic industry more than the Editors. They have over the years, relegated any creativity beyond established norm to the gutters all in an effort to protect their own bottom line. I won't even be bothered to look through the Diamond catalogue anymore. the monopoly that they hold will lead to the downfall of the industry.
Another mistake is thinking that the only market to go after to insure the survival of comics is the kids market. This may be true for the survival of the superhero adventure market, but if you look at Japan, they have books on everything that we would normally see in comics as well as high selling books that deal with things in everyday life and beyond. We may have invented comics, but Japan has surpassed us to a point that we are only just beginning to catch on too.
for example, many of their movies and TV shows are derived from comics and they promte ALL of them heavily among the public and properly cross pollinate each products multiple formats. These tools at Marvel cannot even be bothered with pointing out the comics among their cartoon shows. Look at the logic of their current promotions. They have 8 Thor, Cap and Iron man books out, and are already cancelling them. They should be coming out within 6 months of a film release, not a year before when no one is even aware of them outside of comic fans.
Superhero shit for the most part bores me to tears now.
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Post by G on Nov 29, 2010 12:45:42 GMT -5
Look at the logic of their current promotions. They have 8 Thor, Cap and Iron man books out, and are already cancelling them. They should be coming out within 6 months of a film release, not a year before when no one is even aware of them outside of comic fans. Superhero shit for the most part bores me to tears now. This is precisely why superhero books bore everybody now (including me). It's because they can't see beyond a 5 issue mini series or an all inclusive story arc. This might have a lot to do with Diamond's influence, but if this is the final outcome of their influence, then yes indeed, they are killing comics. We don't need 8 Thors and Captain Americas and Iron Mans that ALL suck. We just need 1 good one. I'm not a defender of just superheroes. I hope my review show I'm capable of reading any type of comic. But superheroes suck today because they lost what used to make them great. And I'll agree, they suck. At least 95% of them do. Im buying a bit from every type of comic, not just superheros. I'm a bigger fan of Avatar these days than I am of Marvel or DC.
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Post by G on Nov 29, 2010 12:47:29 GMT -5
I agree Larsen could use some new challenges, but I never thought he drew tight as you put it. I always liked his work, but he seemed like a poor mans McFarlane to me. Doing Dragon actually allowed him to seperate himself from that. He also has an output like Romita jr. I mean he drew tighter then than he draws now. Now his work is fast sketches. Before he put a lot more work into it.
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