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Post by G on Nov 9, 2010 0:30:05 GMT -5
Not saying I would do it especially in this day and age, but I've got to wonder, besides doing the work to make comics, what exactly does it take to launch not only a comic book, but perhaps a comic company itself?
Our old visitor Mark Davis (starbrand) has obviously launched a few home made type comics that were professionally printed. He has existed under the name of Landmark Comics and now Surprising Comics. I wouldn't call any of it a success, but I guess it depends on exactly what one would consider the definition of successful comic company these days.
Is it just enough to make your own comic book and have yourself pay for the printing and hope a few of the local comic stores put 10 copies on their shelves and call it a local project enough to call it successful? I mean, the fact you make a comic, pay to have it printed and even get it to be sold on a comic shop shelf could be a level of success in itself. But at the same time, it almost seems like a mark of failure. I mean, if you sell 100 comics locally, you haven't really done anything to sustain the costs of making the comics and paying yourself back for the work as well as making enough capital to create the next comic or even better yet, hire on talent.
At what level does it go from just a hobby to put your own comic out, to struggling company fighting to survive, to a comic company making enough to sustain itself and keep itself going, to being considered a full fledged legitimate comic company with monthly product and a shot at real competition to the 20 - 100 comic companies that at least are scratching to be listed in Previews?
Even companies considered mildly successes these days are falling by the wayside and dying out. These are comics we may have even purchased ourselves and considered these companies legit. Now they are gone or might as well be. The fact at one time they produced monthly comics and lived a bit of the dream, is that a success? I mean damn, when you think about it, comic companies like Valiant, Acclaim, Crossgen, Charlton, Atlas, Chaos, etc all at one time achieved a certain level of success only to burn out and be mere memories of comics. They had real artists we can name today and seek out their work and have since moved on to bigger things. Those guys originally may have been with one of these burned out companies. It was obviously a stepping stone to further success. Some of these guys and companies certainly lasted longer than others. But even in death they can boast a certain level of success. Hell, they might even be able to point at their comics in the Overstreet Price guide. That's meeting a certain standard right there because a lot of these rag tags that do have product never see themselves listed in the OSPG.
So what is enough for a rag tag group of people....say 4 or 5 dudes who have an interest and ability to create a comic. Where should they make a 1st step goal if they really want to make and create just one comic and have it continue from there?
I mean, its an accomplishment to just get that first comic out. Okay, so you make it that far you accomplish that goal of getting one comic out. What does it take to keep that goal going of getting 3 or 4 comics out? And then maybe in 2-3 years have a library of maybe 10-15 comics out and still at it? I mean the times couldn't be worse to try it, but I know there are guys out there dreaming this stuff up everyday and 99.9% of them are going to fail. So what does it take to be that 00.1% who not only get one comic out, but 15 and are still keeping at it?
I don't hardly think one person can do it on their own, although I'm sure its been done in the past. So what does it take to get a group of guys together and say "Lets do this" and at what cost are we talking to produce? Not talking about bringing in the money yet. Just make say 100 copies of a comic and then sit your ass at a convention table and call yourself a creator and sign comics and try and move from there?
What would it take to do what Surprising Comics has (Mark Davis, Starbrand). What would it take to beat that? Is there such a thing as building a comic company from the ground up anymore? Is it still possible??? Even in this day and age? Can a group of guys with no comics out actually be around 10 years from now with an existing library?
I'm just asking.....
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Post by bigw1966 on Nov 9, 2010 11:06:12 GMT -5
This is an area that I have done a great deal of research into.
I have been wanting to create web comics for years and back in the early 90's I came across James Hudnells first attempts at it and we got in contact with each other. I shared with him a 3 year plan that I had come up with that started out with Web comics made availible for a very low rate which after completion would then not only be collected into TPB's, but could also be sold at stores on a memory card yo be used on a mobile device. (*Note that in the early 90's, not only were there no mobile devices capable of displaying comics, but there at that point were also no such thing as FLASH memory cards. I was way ahead of the game.)
Currently I have a very similar plan working my way through the brain but with a different approach.
My new appraoch is this;
*Break in to the industry to a degree where I get some recognition.
*Create a web comic site with its own reader.
Charge$1-2 a month per title for full access to it. Updates weekly.
*do complete story before publishing in order to meet the updates on time.
*Build relationships with high level freelancers such as Warren Ellis who have experience and interest in web comics, get them to create one for my site to draw traffic to the site.
*After getting people to the site bring out another series by me or another Artist. I would keep 15% of the revenue for hosting and creators who would have full access to the number statistics would get the rest to bepaid to the creative teams or I would dole out the profits based on their agreement.
*Create a partnership with Longboxx and other big Digital comics formatters so that I can format the titles for use on mobile devices.
*Create my own mobile app and make the titles availible for DL to mobile device directly from my site.
*Advertise, and promote by doing conventions and getting some interviews with major comic sites like CBR and Bleeding cool for example.
*Ready the titles for eventual collection in hardcover or paperback TPB's
*Create and send buyer sheets out to major book sellers like Borders and Barnes and Noble as well as all Direct Market Stores.
*Self Distribute
*time the realease of titles on the web so that I have at least 4-6 titles running at all times.
*Build the community for my titles with interactive forums, and contests to win artwork or other swag.
So here you see the foundation of what it would take to create a digital company. I did not even touch upon investment capital which a safe number for startup would be about $10,000.00 to build the site and get the app created by Longboxx and others and to also pay a couple of creators to work on my stories at the start.
The Idea is that once it gets rolling, it will be easier to draw in more hi-level talent who have an interest in being their own bosses. But not letting them get their book up until it can run for at least 2-3 months uninterupted.
With my knowledge in clothing and other types of secondary art fields, I could manufacture all kinds of stuff.
After it is established I would then get an Agent to represent my interests in getting the stuff into other markets such as toys and film.
For a Print based company, it wold be a mostly similar process except that you would need about $100,000.00 for startup capital to cover creator costs, advertising , Trademarking of the brand itself.
The importent factor is to get the best freelance talent you can to do work for you and thereby draw people to your product.
I would release my own work on the coattails of what they do on the site.
This is just one method and only one persons approach.
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Post by defiant1 on Nov 9, 2010 11:41:06 GMT -5
bigw1966,
I would find some way to invest less money. Anything can be copied these days somehow, so investing in secure formats can be a waste of money. I think Web comics are fine, but I'd start off with POD (Print on Demand) or something like that to release hard copies. You could collect the web comics and then entice people to buy a hard copy through a POD service with extra pages & bonus content. Years ago I asked a friend how Netscape was able to give away their software while Opera charged for their browser. He laughed and said " Do you know how many people visit the Netscape site? They can make all their money off advertising." People on the web want something for free. I'd be brainstorming a way to give something away in exchenge for web hits. Obviously, a normal web comic isn't likely to generate enough traffic flow to pay for name creators through advertising, but that's the angle I'd be investigating. You also don't need to be footing the bill to print a lot of copies of something if you haven't generated an audience for the product. The ultimate payoff is to generate a product that creates interest in Hollywood. It would happen a lot faster if you could generate traffic with free content. I don't have the answers for a comic book business in rough times like these, but I would be looking for any opportunity to keep the cost of running the business to a minimum.
df1
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Post by bigw1966 on Nov 9, 2010 15:48:59 GMT -5
Good Advice.
But, Printing anything would not happen until a complete story was ready which would take some time. Around a year. That would allow time to see what the draw is for it. Also the first TPB that would be collected would be from whoever the known pro is.
Their recognition would not only bring people to the site, but also get them to pay for the book. especially if the price to page count is comparable or better than the big publishers with a quality product.
to entice people to give it a shot, they would get the first 8-10 pages for free. It would end in a cliffhanger.
so using Ellis as a pro, he writes a 10 page opener with a cliffhanger, considering who he is its likely to get some people who would be willing to plunk down $2 from paypal. As soon as they do, the next 8 pages would be instantly availible. then there would be an update again at mid month that would conclude the month giving roughly 20 pages for $2.
If its a recurring subscription, they wuld get updates that its availible.
After the story gets pretty far like a few issues worth, we would make the first 20 or so pages availible for free with a cliffhanger and then charge $2 for each following issue 0r 20-ish pages.
So ellis is very popular so say a max of 5000 people sign up for subscriptions. well that is $10,000 my 15% would be $1500. just for it being on my site.
As I get more titles set up in this format they would bring in whatever they could and then I could charge 3-5% to advertise all their stuff on the site.
Understand, right here I am only talking about what is on the site. This does not include mobile devices which have to be formatted differently depending on the device, smartphone or iPAD.
that would be more revenue for me and the creators.
My agreement with them would also include full publishing rights in all formats and a portion of secondary market returns and recognition as the publishing house. My company would handle getting the product to other markets
If I am making my own titles in whatever capacity be it writing or drawing I will also make money from them. I can promote in the ways I mentioned.
Print would not happen for 6-12 months after launch and be staged.
The reason to have the amount of capital that I stated is because in order to promote beyond just the web you need money also to pay creators working on your own projects and to cover a few con trips to promote the company and meet with creators.
The amount of time involved for what I want to do also would not leave a lot of time for regular work, so It would take more.
to make an actual print company, you have to be prepared to cover costs for at least 1 year of publishing before revenue streams are counted.
This is if you wanted to do something like Radical or IDW do.
Publishing on Demand is something that I am getting ready to do with the anthology I did with my group. but I am really not interested in that as a way to profit.
If the product is good and the hype it generates is sound, then hollywood and gaming companies will come calling.
I would not do it unless I had become known and had some known creators involved though.
The name of my company would be called Imagination Engine.
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Post by bigw1966 on Nov 9, 2010 15:53:24 GMT -5
BTW the pricing and release setup would be the same on mobile devices as it is on the site. Mobile devices if you are a subscriber already you would get a single use code to access the smartphone version off of the single subscription. iPAD users could just go right to the site.
Web comics are starting to finally become a lucrative market. Pricing and quality are key.
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Post by G on Nov 9, 2010 22:11:36 GMT -5
Some good stuff coming up here, but this sounds like ideas where you already have a good amount of working capital to start up with. I'll say if you have backing, seems like not bad ideas here. I'm digging it. But I kind of want to break it down a little lighter than this.
Lets say you and your bros are practically broke but have the talent to make comics and want to get the ball rolling.
We don't have enough money to create our own web comic web site yet, even though I'm sure there are places we can have it displayed, I'm kinda wondering who's willing to pay for no names like us because sadly, we don't have enough money to hire a Warren Ellis just yet. All we have is a tad bit of scratch money, enough talent to create comics and an awful lot of desire. Do we go the route of putting up web comics for free and not create any revenue because we cannot afford a real name yet? Or do we complete all the necessary components to get a book out there and scrounge up the money to get something printed?
I'm asking because I think this is kinda like a chicken or the egg scenario. Like....
How are you gonna get people to pay to see YOUR web comics when you don't have ANY comics out yet nor any money to hire any brand name talent?
So, do you plug away at someone hosting your art as one of the countless entities trying to get others to host their comics and hope you stick out from the crowd?
Or......
Do you put all your blood sweat and tears into making a product that can be held in your hands and put all your money efforts into getting a book mass produced and be something real that might get you to drop links in the pages of the books to potential web projects, message boards and fan sites as well as can be in front of a convention signing table with your art work and creative teammates with you and you're working the convention circuit because now you have a real legitimate book you can hand people?
And no, I'm not talking no black n white ashcan. I'm talking one self produced full-fledged comic book.
I'm not knocking any of the ideas here because I'm personally digging this discussion and want to hear more thoughts. I'm just saying can we break this down even further, because I'm not sure we have $10,000 - $100,000 or know backers who will plunk down that kinda money on virtual unknowns to jump-start a brand spanking new comic brand who just got done working the last year or so on creating their first comic and now want to get it out and see if they can get some momentum rolling on a second comic or now they are able to have the money to start up a comic web site of their own.
Which would be first? The web comic with no notoriety hosted on a free site and hoping you stick out from the free site competition? Or a legit comic to peddle your way to a 2nd project and beyond?
One more thing, as a potential backer, if a web comic was in the works, I wouldn't post the first page unless the entire book was done. Because I've seen over the years too many comic projects get started and never completed. The attention span of a comic group can be amazingly fleeting. So I wouldn't want to put the 1st pages of a web comic up unless I knew the entire comic was already done and just waiting for more reasons (and maybe interest or subscribers) waiting for more pages to be put up.
I'm just saying before we jump all the way to the level of say Crossgen or Devils Due, explain a bit more how we get out of just the starting gate itself.
I say all this totally respecting what's been said previously. Just looking for more input for the start-up concepts. The bigger snowballing will come after the opening jump out of the gate takes place. (In more detail).....
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Post by bigw1966 on Nov 10, 2010 8:40:00 GMT -5
With what I was discussing, I mentioned a couple of times that I would first do work that helped to build my name. Then I would go after the other creators.
Ellis being a writer would be less adverse to taking a risk on a web venture. In fact he and an Artist named Paul Duffield created a free web comic called FREAK ANGELS which is very good and so far 4 volumes have been collected and It wn an Eisner award.
You could get a writer of worth if the profit potential and the idea are sound. He will bring the talent.
then it is just a matter of releasing a couple of things that are really strong to get peopel willing to plunk down a few dollars.
Things to note;
there are a variety of free scripts that you can use for web comics that turn the pages or allow you to zoom into panels and what have you.
You can build a website fro free with limited effort. Yes it is a lot of work but you know what I mean.
After that it just needs hosting and promotion.
For PRINT Comics;
there are a few options right now, using defiants -print on demand version, you could create the book and maybe a sketchbook preview and then print 50 to 100 copies at a pop through one of the smaller services like Kapow.com.
then you hit the convention circuit and promote your stuff and use the conventions to meet retailers and interest them into supporting your book to some degree.
Another option, is to create the book entirely, then put some samples up on Kickstart.com
Kickstart is a site dedicated to getting funding for creators through donations. there are a number of properties coming out now in comics and film that got their start through kickstart.
A third option, is to again, create the entire story or at least have one complete issue along with the scripts and some pages for the following issues and then make a pitch to an editor at one of the creator friendly setups. IMAGE, Skybound (Robert Kirkmans studio), IDW, ICON.
If they like what you have they will publish you. In the case of Image, they will actually put a small percentage of money in the hands of the creators to keep the momentum going until sales start to come in.
It is actually much easier to get product out on the market nowadays. You just need motivation, a strong team and the ability to properly sell your concept.
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AC
Standout Worker
Posts: 105
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Post by AC on Nov 15, 2010 11:20:03 GMT -5
Hey all,
I worked with Mark Davis on LandMark Comics for several years... currently I'm assisting with lettering duties for him at Surprising, as well as for his sr. editor's company Red Leaf Comics.
The approach I tried to instill was having a web-presence as well as a local one. I dug the idea of doing web-comics/publishing online, but couldn't feel like I'd actually "done" anything unless I had a physical copy of my/our work.
Granted, we were working with ashcans (*literally* home-made), but it was a lot of fun, as well as a character building experience talking to local shop owners about stocking our books, and sending copies to the local conventions with stores that carried us.
Before things kinda stalled out, I'd networked with a semi-known local indy talent, and offered to reprint his mini-comic series thru LandMark (as his first TPB was just about to release, and he wanted some product in stores to coincide). Figured re-printing locally "known" work would help expand the brand... and as he was touring all the national conventions already... it wouldn't hurt for him to have a stack of LandMark Comics on his table at artist's alley in San Diego, New York or Chicago.
Unfortunately, as it is with many small-press companies, it wasn't to be. I believe Mark's doing POD now, which seems to be working for him. The comics look great/professional.
Heh, not sure what advice could be gleaned from my rambling post... if any. If there's anything I could do to help, just let me know.
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