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Post by cyberstrike on Feb 17, 2011 12:35:13 GMT -5
I might expand this into am entry on my blog, then again I might not.
I think something is lacking from comics and that is fun. Now maybe it's me and being older and more cynical and world weary than I was when I was 15. While I do enjoy reading comics most (and thankfully I read only books that I enjoy and have dropped the titles that I don't enjoy), but I feel like there is something lacking a sense of fun even in the books that I enjoy.
The ongoing series that I currently collect: Transformers, John Byrne's Next Men and X-Factor, and it is X-Factor is the only book that I have fun reading. I enjoy reading The Transformers and John Byrne's Next Men but they lack that indescribable (well for me anyway) "fun" element.
I don't know maybe it's Peter David's wicked sense of humor combined mixed with a more primetime drama that makes X-Factor such a fun read, in fact the only other book I that I have fun reading is The Astonishing X-Men by Joss Whedon and John Cassaday which did the same thing.
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Post by defiant1 on Feb 17, 2011 18:46:41 GMT -5
I might expand this into am entry on my blog, then again I might not. I think something is lacking from comics and that is fun. Now maybe it's me and being older and more cynical and world weary than I was when I was 15. While I do enjoy reading comics most (and thankfully I read only books that I enjoy and have dropped the titles that I don't enjoy), but I feel like there is something lacking a sense of fun even in the books that I enjoy. The ongoing series that I currently collect: Transformers, John Byrne's Next Men and X-Factor, and it is X-Factor is the only book that I have fun reading. I enjoy reading The Transformers and John Byrne's Next Men but they lack that indescribable (well for me anyway) "fun" element. I don't know maybe it's Peter David's wicked sense of humor combined mixed with a more primetime drama that makes X-Factor such a fun read, in fact the only other book I that I have fun reading is The Astonishing X-Men by Joss Whedon and John Cassaday which did the same thing. No they aren't. Stan Lee put fun in comics. The Human Torch and the Things were always going back and forth with one another calling each other names. Willie Lumpkin.... 'nuff said! I thought some of the lame early X-Men issues were still fun when Bobby and Hank were hanging out with their girlfriends at the coffee shop. Spider-Man was always cracking jokes. Dumb Hulk was always mumbling something simplistic and funny. The Defenders tricking Hulk into tagging along and helping them was always fun to me. A word I used to describe comics recently was 'pretentious'. Whedon does inject humor. In Hollywood, it's pretty much required at some point in a movie or TV show. df1 |
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Post by G on Feb 18, 2011 8:03:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the good thread topic. I smiled when I seen it.
I have to agree that comics have lost a lot of what made them fun. I find I can read a bunch of comics and spend half the time being confused and trying to fit pieces together like a jigsaw puzzle. Usually by the end, I am getting a feel for the story and maybe just starting to get my interest going and then the comic abruptly ends. Often when I get the next issue, I may be more aware of what has happened before hand, but now a new series of events to confuse me enters into it and I have to fit a few more pieces of the puzzle into it.
It's amazing to me that books like Marvel are trying a point one concept to tell people "this is a starting point" when really there used to be no need for that at all. You used to be able to jump on and off and back on with ease and feel like you had a good idea where things were even if you missed 5 issues in between. Yeah, you might have had a couple of fuzzies on a few things, you were otherwise well informed and aware of what was happening.
The approach now seems far too serious. Very often I feel like I am watching a scene from a movie and you know you are watching a filler scene that advances the story along but is necessary and 1/20th of the overall story. Well, that scene is like half the comic. Sometimes it is way to elaborate. If it is tough for me as an adult to keep up, how the hell are children or teenagers supposed to care?
This is one reason I said on my blog that comics lack imagination. Part of that imagination is taking an elaborate moment and simplifying it so the average comic reader can see a scene in a page and go "got it". I read pages now and it's like "The Kree race fought with the inhabitants of the Lunar Solar Alliance and King Crusty who was warding off his own personal coo from allied alliances in the red flow army of the coast of tittytack on furburger island." And the following page often reads exactly like that but now onto a different matter.
I often find myself rereading pages so I can try and understand WTF are they saying? Yeah, this might be easy to grasp if I had read the last 50 issues, but I aint the luxury of that much time. I gave this book a shot and all it's trying to do is confuse the fuck out of me before I gather a loose understanding of a plot.
I think this is just another reason why I miss continuation in comics. This elaborate movie system approach doesn't have to be reestablished every time a new story arc takes place.
When I think fun, I think of old Fantastic Four books where we were always entering another day in the life of our heroes and we knew where we were the last time we seen them and if we skipped a few issues, we were quite okay. This issue kinda gets us back up to speed and we're back to moving forward. The events that happen inside are easy to follow, understand and get into. The teaser for the next issue has me running to the comic stand 30 days later.
I also felt the same way with the Byrne X-Men issues, Avengers, Capt America, Iron Man, etc. These were easy to follow and no, I never felt like a child reading them. I felt like these were adults talking to me in a way that made me feel more like an adult. And if I was already an adult, it wasn't insulting my intelligence with some hair brained story or corniness. Where I was a kid or an adult, it was easy to follow for both, enjoyable for both and fun for all.
I think defiant1 used the word pretentious in a previous post. Yeah, that's the feeling I get now. Let's separate the knows from the don't knows. The feeling I get now is "keep up". It takes away from the fun. The amount of time I spend figuring things out and getting a grasp for the story leads to disinterest. I think these pretentious bastards don't realize that you're only holding about 20 pages of a story in your hand. I don't need to know how every movement by one entity effects countless souls on galaxies far, far away. I need to know the here and now and who it affects right here or just out of sight.
I think comics need to separate itself from the medium of movies and remember it's a comic first.
No, the fun for 90% of comics out there is totally missing. Very few today can be fun. I find a couple books like Captain America, the recent Fantastic Four, yes Next Men and a couple of others fun. But this is very few and far between. And its only because the writers while extremely talented on a larger scale still realize they have to entertain with the 20 pages they have instead of giving me 10 pages at a time from their 400 page epic.
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Post by bigw1966 on Feb 18, 2011 8:18:19 GMT -5
I will agree with "G" on parts of what he said, but for me as I see it, I get the feeling of Been there-done that. I have read so many superhero comics, that there are truly very few surprises availible in them for me. Half the time I just turn the pages bored. Not because the writing is bad or the art is terrible, but just because every bit of ground in that genre has been tread before.
That is why I read books like Fables and "Y" the last man and 100 Bullets and the Hellboy books.
The stories in those are able to surprise me and propel my interests because they have not regurgitated the same themes forever and a day.
Additionally, I think that as we have gotten older, our demands have changed, even if we are not aware of it.
Some of the 60's and 70's stuff just falls flat for me now as well. Mainly because the writing is simpler and bores me quicker.
To regain my interests, Marvel for example should have a story where all of the hero's end up getting killed defending the earth.
This puts the world in turmoil and chaos insues. Then, after months of struggle which would be shown in books that would focus on the side characters and in some cases their revelation that the people they knew were actually some of those heroes and how THEY feel about it.
Then, when things look their worst, new people step up to protect the world.
some in the uniforms and names of old heroes, the rest, all brand new characters that will be the stars of all of the new series that will be coming.
I think that is an interesting Idea that would lead to a brand new Marvel.
They wouldn't take the risk though.
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Post by G on Feb 18, 2011 19:37:02 GMT -5
I will agree with "G" on parts of what he said, but for me as I see it, I get the feeling of Been there-done that. I have read so many superhero comics, that there are truly very few surprises availible in them for me. Half the time I just turn the pages bored. Not because the writing is bad or the art is terrible, but just because every bit of ground in that genre has been tread before. That is why I read books like Fables and "Y" the last man and 100 Bullets and the Hellboy books. The stories in those are able to surprise me and propel my interests because they have not regurgitated the same themes forever and a day. Yeah, but the problems are not when they were done originally. It's that they're still being done that way NOW. If I cast out superheroes for the likes of comic stories, it feels kinda like I already gave up on comics period. I can appreciate those kind of books as well as anyone. I have my fair share of them too and yeah, the ideas and themes are more adult, contemporary and different. But if superheroes today can't keep up with those kind of books, I'd just say it's lack of imagination from the writers. After awhile, those "other" kind of comics just give that empty feeling too. I feel like we should be able to like both. But this is a personal preference issue. Hey, at least you can say you at least like those kind of comics. I think the rehashing is more prone to the now than the back then. Looking at an issue of Previews drives that point home to me. It ain't like when me and you used to stand in front of the comic rack in the 7-11 anymore going "wow". Now I just keep thinking....pose, fanout, collage, fanout, pose, poster shot, pose, fanout. The rehashing is now.... Additionally, I think that as we have gotten older, our demands have changed, even if we are not aware of it. Some of the 60's and 70's stuff just falls flat for me now as well. Mainly because the writing is simpler and bores me quicker. And yet a lot of that was so fresh then. I don't know. I always feel like looking back at old comics and thinking "I outgrew this" puts the blame on when you actually enjoyed comics (and you know you did) and quite literally, the comics from today are the ones letting me down. To regain my interests, Marvel for example should have a story where all of the hero's end up getting killed defending the earth.This puts the world in turmoil and chaos insues. Then, after months of struggle which would be shown in books that would focus on the side characters and in some cases their revelation that the people they knew were actually some of those heroes and how THEY feel about it. Then, when things look their worst, new people step up to protect the world. some in the uniforms and names of old heroes, the rest, all brand new characters that will be the stars of all of the new series that will be coming. I think that is an interesting Idea that would lead to a brand new Marvel. They wouldn't take the risk though. I keep waiting for the next great thing in comics. A lot of people keep looking at rehashing the past (like Valiant) and hoping to strike gold again. I don't think that's going to happen. I think a new comic company or series of comics need to come out of nowhere and do things in a way with such quality, detail and workmanship that quite literally nearly the entire comic collecting world will go "oh my god, this is good". Unfortunately, it doesn't feel like it's going to happen. I really don't think it would be THAT hard to do. I mean right now, I think comics are PRIME for somebody to come and blow things off the map. But these jackwagons we got now can't see the forest from the trees. My next issue of Previews will look just like the last. It feels like a bunch of dumbasses are in charge. |
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Post by defiant1 on Feb 19, 2011 1:20:59 GMT -5
All fiction to me is regurgitated. I consider that an inescapable problem. Even comedy can be broken down and the structure of a joke is regurgitated. I'm not convinced that reading Y: The Last Man would make me feel that I've found something new. From reading the summary on the wikipedia, it's derivative of a dozen basic sci-fi plots that I'm sick of and it's got a little window dressing. Plots about the last man on earth are regurgitated just as much as superheroes. Again though, this is why I like true sci-fi with "futurists" writing it.
The biggest problem with superhero comics is that Joe Reader grows up reading comic books. He loves them and wants to make them when he turns 18. He sits down to write a plot and the only knowledge base he has to build a story are the 10 years worth of comics he read. You throw a true science or engineering concept his way and it's discarded because he has no clue how or why you'd use elements other than the ones that he enjoyed. The industry has tunnel vision.
df1
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Post by bigw1966 on Feb 19, 2011 1:25:03 GMT -5
Exactly my point. Everything now is rehashing all of the stuff that was done 25 years ago.
The problems with Superheroes in todays world, is the romanticism that you could go out and take down some major villian and serve justice without a scratch is ludicrous.
Now, a Superhero would be more likely to put a permanent end to the bad guy with no one shedding a tear. After all, that is how the rest of entertainment works.
So with that in mind, stories end up becoming contrived.
As for the other kinds of comics, they may get some slow spots, but overall they are covering new ground compared to capes.
BTW defient. "Y" is worth the praise. Smart writing and its not all cut and dry like you may be imagining. Solid art that fits well also.
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Post by cyberstrike on Feb 19, 2011 10:29:45 GMT -5
My gripe with superheroes is that 99% of them take way too seriously, which is fine but every so often it's OK to be a little silly. I remember an issue of a various Spider-Man comic where Peter Parker doesn't have his costume and is a grocery store, (this was around time when he created 4 other superheroes identities to clear his name), when some punks try to rob the store the Kangaroo II comes in and tries to stop them and instead they hold him hostage so Peter Parker grabs a paper bag and pokes to eye holes and takes off his shirt and becomes...Paper Bag Man! He captures the punks, frees Kangaroo II (who asks if he could become his sidekick or vice versa I forget which). It was one issue where the creative team could simply tell a silly story and then next issue back to more serious dramatic stuff.
I read some Y, the Last Man on Earth and it is a very serious and very fun series to read.
I don't think a series has to be funny to be fun, or has to be serious to be fun but to me knowing when to be funny and not to be funny is what is I find missing in most books.
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Post by G on Feb 19, 2011 11:25:54 GMT -5
Comics has lost a lot of that homey feel. And yes, it is a part of it.
I remember the 1st comic I bought (X-Men #110), the comic starts out like the X-Men are at a picnic and playing a softball game. It was a mix of seriousness and fun. Later Phoenix announces she has officially joined the team. Even later, Wolverine gets alone with Phoenix and acts like he is popping wood and trying to hit it. There was just a bit of sexual tension between the two.
Hell I was 11 years old at the time. The comic was young enough for me to read but old enough for more adult people to "get it". I think those homey moments and love interests helped draw me in. Cyclops was always looking over his shoulder at Wolverine. This was easy enough for me to understand, the story was moving along, it didn't feel dumbed down. It did involve getting my interest up to see what was going to happen next.
When I read comics today, I'm not feeling these same feelings or seeing these same kind of events. It is just onto the drama of the villain or situation and dealing with it. The emotional part of the characters that we can relate to is missing.
I do think those type of moments could be around a lot more and bring greater success. It IS missing today....
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Post by bigw1966 on Feb 20, 2011 10:43:50 GMT -5
"G" how many times can they go over the sexual tension stuff and have it hold relevance. In reality, people in that situation would have done one of two things. They would have had sex, or they would no longer talk to each other so as to avoid a broken heart.
the reason that crap holds no sway, is because you have been through enough relationship shit that its old hat and your brain has already come to a conclusion.
Its the same for most anything done in superhero comics.
That is why I moved beyond them for much of my reading. They just go over the same crap that in life I have already concoured or come to grips with, while the kids they are aiming at are the new us.
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