|
Post by G on Apr 1, 2012 9:47:03 GMT -5
I've been accused over and over of being an old-timer and living in the past when it comes to comics. A lot of that may be very true but I also think I've seen things in comics and experienced them live before some people around here were even born. I started collecting in 1978 and I have been collecting on and off since then. That's 34 years as of this writing. When I came in, comics were incredibly strong. All the cool kids read comics. A lot of them at school. We used to pass them around during classes and put them in our notebooks and read them when the teacher wasn't looking. Not long after that comics just exploded and everyone including adults were buying them. Comic shops were popping up everywhere and all my friends went to the local comic conventions. We all knew the storylines and if we didn't, we could ask someone who was reading it and they could tell us the plot in a minute or two.
It was a different time. And call me old school, but compared to what we have today with dwindling sales and no one hardly talking about current comics, I think it was better. These years of experience have taught me to complain about things that are missing or went wrong in today's comics. It's spread all out on this message board. But I thought I would just create a thread and go over things one by one. I'm going to keep adding to this thread things I think have went wrong in comics over the last 34 years of my life. And hopefully you guys can respond or feel free to add your own. Or if you feel so inclined, make up you defenses for why that was actually a good thing. There is no limit.
But for me, this is going to be one handy spot where I can get off my chest things I thought have gone wrong. I plan on adding an awful lot to it. So lets get started....
|
|
|
Post by G on Apr 1, 2012 10:04:36 GMT -5
Dropping continuity in comics - One thing I always thought that made comics great for so many years is that you didn't necessarily have to read every issue to have a good idea what was going on. You could occasionally miss 3 or 4 issues and then buy one and catch right back up. You seen events unfolding in a multi-tiered way. You seen the current issue and its problems and you seen snippets of what was going on as a much larger story over a longer period of time. Often this was issues that were happening personally to a characters life. This often involved relationship issues and struggles. Job and housing issues and making payments. And yes, even setups for villains coming off in the future. The fact of the matter is comics were like a serial strip of a long continuing life and you could come and go as you please and feel like you knew the character quickly when you came back.
Too often today, a character is defined by events that have taken place in a non-serial way. You follow the pieces of one event and then follow the character in another. Often the 2 events have nothing to do with each other. Furthermore, this continues over many series of events and if you leave and come back, you often feel like you don't know what is going on with the character because you missed all the events. And the events aren't in any kind of order anyway.
To me this shows a lack of leadership in a company because their characters are no longer cohesive. Fans can no longer pick up the pieces in a short time span and realize where their favorite character currently is. Instead we are given point 1 issues and told these are good jumping on points for the next event. In my day, every issue was a jumping on point. Now today, points ones are where you should on and if you missed the point one, you might as well miss them all because you are missing the next event.
I think over time the lack of continuity has caused fans to lose interest. These characters are no longer real to them anymore. They can't no longer relate to the character. They can't build a history with a character and remember what part of the timeline they came in and even worse, where they are now. The fans no longer see the big picture with a character. They only see the event they hold in their hands. They read finish and then there is not so much a need to keep going.
To me the great part of comics were the constant cliffhangers at the end. The "to be continued" captions and small snippets in letter columns had me not being able to wait for 30 days to go by so I could see the next part of the story and keep going. I could go through 30 - 50 to be continued and still want to come back for more, whereas an event had a start and an end and it was up to you to want to come back. The thrill of being teased is gone. There is no more to be continued. And in essence, no need to come back.
To me one of the biggest reasons comics are failing is they have lost continuity over time. Ive been told things are better the way they are now but I don't believe it. I think the sales numbers prove otherwise. I think the fact people don't talk about what is happening speaks volumes. Everything is there in front of us to say things are not better now and yet still the remaining few still reading comics hold steadfast to this belief that things are better while the majority who left are not polled why they left.
Call me crazy, but I think it would be easy to be different in today's world of comics. And having tight continuity would be an easy way to start.
|
|
|
Post by G on Apr 1, 2012 10:21:45 GMT -5
Multiple Covers - Multiple covers has its place in collecting and can be fine at certain times. The problem is multiple covers is one of the most abused gimmicks in comics today. Back in the day multiple covers were done to mark significant moments. Now they are done to almost every issue of every comic. This creates a couple of negatives. One, the completist can no longer or track down every cover there is. Ive seen some comics have upwards of 6 to 8 covers for no reason at all except it is the next issue. Some have low print numbers so therefore they cost much more. Some in excess of $50 for a standard $4 comic otherwise with the only thing changing is the cover and the print run of that cover. This also creates non desirable covers or "lesser than" covers. Its not good enough that you have the comic these days. Back in my day there was only 1 cover and you either had the comic or you didn't. Now, you might actually have the comic but you'll have the cover no one cares about. How can that be that you actually have the comic every one wants but you don't have the one every one wants? This also makes ordering new comics a roll of the dice. Some services such as DCBS allow you to preorder new comics knowing there is 4-6 regular versions of the comic. They do have the limited covers available at the jacked up prices by the way, but there is still the 4-6 regulars available at regular price. The problem is, you can only order the comic itself. You don't get a chance to choose which cover you want. So often when the comic comes, you have the least desirable version of the cover. Its the one you hated. Its the one no one wants. You end up feeling ripped off for buying the comic everyone wanted because you got the cover no one wanted. Im still trying to see where this makes good business sense? To alienate collectors this way? To me it was much more simple when comics had 1 cover and 1 cover only and if a special event happened you might make the cover count 2 or 3. And even then it was better if there was 1 regular and the other 1 or 2 was limited so it was on a different level than the regular version. The regular version still stood on its own and you still had the comic every one wanted. Not everyone could afford the limited. So it didn't really devalue the regular comic. You still had the comic everyone wanted. That wouldnt be the case today. Today you would have the comic but be the guy holding the cover no one wants. Its comics way of calling you a loser. I can't blame customers for quitting comics when the comic industry flat out calls you a loser for buying their product.
|
|
|
Post by defiant1 on Apr 1, 2012 16:46:07 GMT -5
I've ranted on all this until I'm blue in the face. My sad little response to everything you've said is "I agree".
df1
|
|
|
Post by G on Apr 4, 2012 0:05:42 GMT -5
Mini and Maxi Series & Trade Paperbacks -
I have to be honest. I liked comics a lot better before the advent of mini, maxi series and trade paperbacks (TPB). Once again comics was rolling along until this neat gimmick happened. At first it was quiet a novelty. A collected volume of a character or group of characters telling mainly one storyline from start to finish. It worked out just fine. It was something out of the ordinary and usually something worthy of these publishing avenues. But along the way comics stopped worrying about regular comics and worried more and more on how to create mini, maxiseries or TPBs. And regular comics suffered. Often bring what was a continuing comic saga into on TPB sized story followed by another. Once again continuity was forsaken for profits by turning any and all story arcs into a mini, maxi or a TPB. Sure, there is probably still a few good ones out there, but the fact of the matter is most titles these day originate as a Mini or Maxiseries and end that way once big enough to churn out the next TPB.
In short I dont think every storyline is worth of mini, maxi or a TPB.
|
|
|
Post by cyberstrike on Apr 6, 2012 10:06:47 GMT -5
I know a lot of people who think that there is too much continuity in comics, I think the better word is history or back story. I think for some creators working on some characters and teams that have anywhere between 20-70 years of back story and history they tend to use that history as a crutch (Geoff Johns is prime example of this) to try link their story to a story that was popular back in the 60/70/80/90s to justify their own story. I hate to tell people what was once popular 20-70 years ago isn't always popular today.
Also some stories shouldn't be brought back, like Spider-Man: The Clone Saga, now there are fans of Ben Reilly saying that is their Spider-Man and while I understand that, but as a teenager of the 90s I hated Ben Reilly because I liked Peter Parker. To me The Clone Saga is a bad memory and any and all attempts to justify it or redeem it (outside of MC-2 comics) are more likely to turn me away from reading Spider-Man books.
|
|
|
Post by G on Apr 6, 2012 15:08:35 GMT -5
I've never been a fan of the term backstory because it implies too much baggage and I think that is why the non-continuity camp like to use that argument and whine that a successful comic that has been around 20-70 years needs to be released from the grips of their history.
That's really not what I'm talking about to be honest.
I never read a comic as a current issue and think it needs to connect to the previous 20-70 years. My feeling is it needs to connect to the previous issue and it needs to set up the next issue. And so on and so on.
I think the comic needs to feel like the here and now and time just keeps going. It doesn't have to be hampered with a backstory of mega proportions. It only has to continue with what is going on now. Don't keep giving me the TPB mentality that I get to read 4-12 issues and then this whole deal never happened when I pick up the next issue.
Backstory or history to me comes into play when you like a character or group and its comics and you decide you want to start collecting previous issues or back issues. Yeah, it would be nice to see how the characters got to the hear and now.
Hell, I don't know if you guys ever wanted to do it. But I always wanted to own all the issues of Fantastic Four back in the day and read them from issue #1 on up. There would be numerous storys and arcs involved but for nearly 40 years, that would have really just have been 1 huge story. Then the last 10-15 years made that impossible because it all became disjointed and irrelevant to previous issues. There obviously would be a point now where I would go....Okay, I think I need to stop reading. These things don't connect anymore.
Continuity to me is about now. And as long as it continues, there will be a past. Just like I started this message board in 2007. It has a past. But we don't talk about threads on here that were started 5 years ago. We talk about threads that are going on now. Comics to me should be the same way. You gain a history by being successful. If you keep starting, stopping, renumbering, doing over. Nobody will care about the history. And they don't. They like to say they don't need to be connected to all that backstory.
|
|
|
Post by G on Apr 8, 2012 11:02:26 GMT -5
Image Comics - I know a lot of people of the newer generation would disagree with this but I think Image Comics was one of the worst things to ever happen to comics. Sure, they have had their successes like Walking Dead and Witchblade and over the years they have made themselves into a legit comic company who occasionally do good things. But I think the bad far outweighs the good. 1st is the way they came into being in the 1st place. You can't blame creators for wanting to take control of their financially and creative livelihoods but it wasn't like they jumped from one company to another. They jumped from Comic Empires and started from the ground up. Okay, not a bad thing but one, they were the hottest artist in comics during the day and they did some damage to the companies they left behind and two, they weren't all together the end all and be all of comics on their own. The great artists suddenly seen themselves as great writers and wrote many uninspired stories. Not only that, they ushered in a new era of comic unprofessionalism that has never been rivaled but unfortunately caught on with many other companies. Gone was the days when one could expect a title to be on the shelves in 30 days. Image made it normal for a comic company to be notoriously late or even worse, land unfinished products. Even ones that were highly touted such as Image United. The creators often publicly bickered and had fallouts and even cut down each others works. Worse yet, under the advent of Twitter many of the creators have taken to beating their own chests in attention getting. Gone is the days of creators have class. Worse yet, they helped pioneer the dawn of no insight pose covers which are now the norm comic company wise. They were the leaders of bringing this new kind of cover to the fold.
Many like to blame the speculation rise and fall as the downfall of comics in the 90s. Others point to the rise and fall of Valiant Comics. But unlike Image, Valiant was a solid company that made wrong business decisions and their brand wore flat with the audience. Image on the other hand was more of a rock star mentality of semi-good to great artists drew stories with no substance and not many cared because of their rock star mentality. I think Image ushered in an era of less than stellar work being the norm. And set the bar for lower and lower expectations. I often look at Image as when comics jumped the proverbial shark. When it lost its way. And ultimately when comics started to fail. Sadly they had too much influence on their competition who likewise followed suit and tried to mimic their ways. The failings of Image soon became their own and comics was introduced to a wide spread cancer that has now declined readership to about 1/10th of what it was when Image started. Gone are the million plus days of comics replaced by comics gasping to reach 100,000 and many barely breaking 20,000. A sure sign of cancellation 20 years ago is now met with a phrase like fan favorite.
Even worse is the creators at Image who would lead comics would not be worthy leaders who guided a ship. They more or less winged it in a disjointed fashion. True comic creators make good leaders. Unfortunately Image decided what worked for 50+ years is not the standard they needed to follow. I find an urge to barf when I read the rumblings of creators like Eric Larsen, Todd McFarlane, Jim Lee, Robb Liefeld and others touting their accomplishments on the realm of comics while overseeing what could only be considered a complete disaster in other companies terms.
Im sure many will tell me the great and marvelous things Image has accomplished that would make other companies jealous. All I know is Ive experience the comics world before and after Image and I thought we had a much more solid and by means better comics industry before Image began.
It wasn't the boom and bust of the 90s that killed comics. Id take another one of those in a heartbeat. It was Valiant folding that killed comics, once again, if someone could run a ship that tight again like in its early days, Id take it in a heartbeat. No to me, it was the birth of Image that marked the true downfall of comics. When less people started attending conventions. When long time readers started leaving. When fads that were bad wouldn't no longer fade away. I blame Image for being one of the worst things that ever happened to comics.
|
|
|
Post by cyberstrike on Apr 8, 2012 16:37:22 GMT -5
No argument here on Image. The founders weren't writers or at least good writers.
IMHO Jim Valentino was the best out of the group and he was at best just average.
Erik Larsen's stuff was like reading stuff written by an immature 13 year old. Sure I liked it when I was 13 but now it's just plain embarrassing and stupid.
Todd McFarlane's stuff was either pretentious, boring, stupid, or all 3.
Jim Lee got in over his head when tried his hand at writing after he wrote the first 3 pages of Divine Right #1.
I don't remember Marc Silvestri ever writing anything. I generally didn't like (and I still don't like his art work) any of books he drew to begin with, so that might be why I don't remember anything he did.
This thread is better than anything Liefeld has written or will write in the future.
Frankly I will take the worst stories of Peter David, Alan Moore, Warren Ellis, Jim Shooter, John Byrne, Jim Starlin, Mark Millar, Stan Lee, and others over their best stories any day of the week.
|
|
|
Post by defiant1 on Apr 8, 2012 17:35:23 GMT -5
Continuity as a topic for me simply means larger scope and relevance. Fantasy stories and one shots have no depth or relevance to anything. Batman could dress in a clown suit or Superman could cheat on a spelling bee. So what? If these actions have no lasting impact, why should anyone care? Continuity in a story is the difference between having a best friend or just having an acquaintance. I liked strong continuity because it helped me know and trust the characters. I knew I was picking up a comic I liked. I knew that what they did mattered in the context I was reading. I could predict if someone was screwing up and saying the wrong thing to Hulk or not. If you offered Hulk beans, you were probably winning him over.
df1
P.S. Image Comics suck ass.
|
|