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Post by defiant1 on May 31, 2012 22:10:31 GMT -5
I'm sick of people being defensive of the gay lifestyle and making them out to be victims. It started out with AIDS and people feeling sorry for them because they were dying horrible deaths. Well, if I went around rubbing my dick in rotten and decaying food in a trash can, I'd take a little more responsibility that it was a stupid fucking decision. What the hell do you think is coming out your ass? Decayed leftovers from your food where bacteria good and bad thrive. I'm sick of people confusing love and hedonism. I'm sick of people confusing love and entitlement. I'm sick of people thinking they deserve special rights because they are into ass fucking and tribadism. I don't have one ounce of sympathy for gay rights activists. They've been secretly selling their agenda through TV and movies for decades so that weak minded people would feel obligated to show compassion. They market the image they want people to have and mindless sheep jump in line to support them. People love their pets and I'm sure someone gets off by fucking their pets. I'm not going to support laws promoting beastiality. I guess I'll read that banning beastiality leads to the holocaust too. People can pass whatever laws they want. My opinion won't change whether it's legal or not. Things don't have to be my way. People don't have to agree with me. Everyone in this world is fucked up in some way, shape, or form. Homosexuality is just one manifestation of that.
df1
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Post by G on May 31, 2012 22:56:34 GMT -5
I'm sick of people being defensive of the gay lifestyle and masking them out to be victims. It started out with AIDS and people feeling sorry for them because they were dying horrible deaths. Well, if I went around rubbing my dick in rotten and decaying food in a trash can, I'd take a littrle more responsibility that it was a stupid fucking decision. What the hell do you think is coming out your ass? Decayed leftovers from your food where bacteria good and bad thrive. I'm sick of people confusing love and hedonism. I'm sick of people confusing love and entitlement. I'm sick of people thinking they deserve special rights because they are into ass fucking and tribadism. I don't have one ounce of sympathy for gay rights activists. They've been secretly selling their agenda through TV and movies for decades so that weak minded people would feel obligated to show compassion. They market the image they want people to have and mindless sheep jump in line to support them. People love their pets and I'm sure someone gets off by fucking their pets. I'm not going to support laws promoting beastiality. I guess I'll read that banning beastiality leads to the holocaust too. People can pass whatever laws they want. My opinion won't change whether it's legal or not. Things don't have to be my way. People don't have to agree with me. Everyone in this world is fucked up in some way, shape, or form. Homosexuality is just one manifestation of that. df1 Well put....
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Post by cyberstrike on Jun 6, 2012 14:37:19 GMT -5
So in other words put them back in the closet? It sounds like you don't like it because it makes you uncomfortable as a parent to have to explain to kids about sexuality. God, I already feel sorry for your kids when you have to "the talk" with them. There have been weddings in comics before with covers that depict the bride and groom about to kiss (which is what Northstar and Kyle are doing they're about to kiss which is NOT same as kissing) with teary-eyed looking guests standing around. It's common icon assorted with weddings. In fact it's so common that have been romantic comedies that have made fun of it. Then you worry about what if Marvel shows Northstar and Kyle on their wedding night or later on, having oral and anal sex (make sure your kids are not reading this G because the f-word is coming). GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK! This ain't no fucking porno comic! It's The Astonishing X-Men a kiss and them laying in bed together after sex is the most you ever see! It's the same with Rictor and Shatterstar's relationship in X-Factor or Kate Kane's relationship in Batwoman. There is no NONE graphic sex scenes showing tits, penis, or vagina in any of those books. You would know this if you actually read them and honestly YOU SHOULD KNOW that regardless. Just because Marvel releases The Rawhide Kid under their Max Comics imprint doesn't mean that every gay and lesbian character in comics have to be a "mature readers" book that is a VERY stupid idea whose time has passed. Having an LGBT characters in a title doesn't make the title a mature reader book automatically (and nor does it make a book relevant, hip, or cool). As you said Northstar been out of the closet for close to 20 years and the fact that he's gay has been the only thing he has been known for the same with Shatterstar, Rictor, the Rawhide Kid, Kate Kane, Midnighter, Apollo (of Stormwatch/The Authority fame and they were married a long time ago). Also none of these characters are well known. While Batwoman is probably the most well known and the current version is the first time DC has used the character regularly in comics in several decades. I also don't quite buy DC's announcement that a "major" character will come out of the closet. Since DC has a ton of characters with multiple versions and a whole fucking multiverse to play around with. Some rumors are saying it's an a new version of characters (like Blue Beetle or The Atom) or that new Earth-2 concept that their using, the character that will come out as gay in that universe. Hell even if it's in the "New" DC Universe my attitude remains the same: breaking down walls and barriers is always a GREAT THING. Even though like you I find it little more than a cheap and quick way to get the mainstream media's attention. But if helps breaks down walls and barriers for gay rights or helps an LGBT reader not to commit suicide then I can easily put up and live with it. And FTR I'm not gay or bisexual. I just happen to have compassion for them. I believe that hiding the realities of life from children is more harmful than good. My grandfather died when I was seven and my mother wouldn't take me to the funeral, and when she didn't explain what death is (she was most likely she was dealing with her own grief and didn't see my own) to me so that when she died suddenly and unexpectedly when I was 13 I didn't know quite how to handle it. In fact it was comics that kept me from committing suicide. Love, sex, death, and other life issues shouldn't be taboo from children they should be taught how to handle it. Cyber, I never have 1 problem with you arguing your case. You can curse and say all the outlandish things you want. Okay? But I do have a problem with you calling out my parenting skills or anything of the like. I have a problem with you trying to turn discussions into your personal matters and striking out against me when doing so. It's called being sarcastic aka a JOKE. I didn't start this thread: you did. You posted what you believe I posted what I believe. You, not me, brought you kids into it, hell before this I didn't know you had any kids. Was my joke, tasteless? Maybe? I think it's a lot funnier than that gif you posted. I think both you and DF1 is more upset than I am. Since neither one of you can actually make a point that doesn't read like something from some major homophobic morons out there. Again I didn't start either gay or the black Spider-Man thread. YOU DID G. You start these threads on these controversies and get mad at me because I don't share your views. I'm not a damn right wingnut Teabagger conservative, I'm a PROUND PROGRESSIVE and I'm going to be your, DF1, or anybody's else whipping boy. You and DF1 have made it crystal clear that don't like LGBT characters and you posted that have a problem with minority versions of classic superheroes. Then that is your problem not mine. If you want me to be your progressive whipping boy I got two words for you: FORGET IT! You see I will fight back, and if you two can't make your arguments without looking like a pair of idiots, then you shouldn't start these controversial threads. Because all you want is justification for your bigotry. Question: What the fuck does The Transformers have to with this topic? Answer: Nothing, other than a distraction ploy. Trending topics? You get mad because younger fans like me really don't care if the new version of Alan Scott, the first Green Lantern is the "big" DC gay character. Or that Batwoman is a lesbian. Or that Rictor and Shatterstar are lovers. Or that Apollo and Midnighter were married before the New 52 and Northstar gets married. It's not a big deal to people like me. It's not my fault that you can't take a joke. It's only my fault for forgetting to post the damn smilies. That much is oblivious. ;D Link. And please no Fox News or MSNBC since they are both bias. For you, it is, for me it's not. Who the fuck said that? Seriously who said LGBT characters are a mature subject matter? Religious Leaders? Corporate suits? The government? Some right wingnut? Some left wing moonbat? I would like to know where you get that The Astonishing X-Men is for kids at? Even the Whedon/Cassidey run and the motion comics based on it are rated as a "teen +" book. If you apparently like to believe in rating systems (which I don't btw) then maybe you should do more research. That used to be true, but not anymore. Which is what I think is a huge part of your whole problem you see comics for when YOU were kid and you want to save that part of your life. And believe it or not I do understand that, but coming from the Transformers fandom I've had to accept that the version of Optimus Prime that I grew up with isn't the same one that Micheal Bay made 3 movies. You can hold on to childhood to the point to where ONLY who will enjoy it and thus it becomes stale and static and guess what? It will die off. Or you can accept that has times change the characters we loved as kids have to change with times. Or has pro-wrestling legend Mick Foley said once: "Those that don't change with history, will become history." But I'm sitting here with a copy of the omnibus of Whedon and Cassaday's run on The Astonishing X-Men and it's rated by Marvel as a "T+" book which means it's meant for teens and older. For the last time, it was meant as a sarcastic joke. Since it offend you then I'm sorry.
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Post by G on Jun 6, 2012 16:32:35 GMT -5
I'll accept the apology and I appreciate it but let me reiterate a few things.
I have only 1 policy here at Comic Crack. You can talk all the shit you want, but don't flame others. That's my only rule. Now I don't think your post was a joke personally, but if you think its borderline, get into the habit of saying its a joke or using emoticons to help display that you're joking. But talking about the way I or anyone here raises their kids needs clarification if you're joking.
Second, the topics are not about you. The topics are about themselves. I posted the topic and the article and linked to it. You were the first one responding to it and saying we need to get over it. Go back and look. Nobody had said anything yet.
When you want you can make fantastic arguments on your behalf and your side. Please just do so without derogatory comments towards others and we'll all be fine.
And finally, no one wants to make you a whipping boy. I appreciate your answers and responses. Nothing is better for a thread than to have 2 sides of it. Nothing is worse than having only 1 side beaten to death. So see your comments as appreciated instead of being a whipping boy and maybe we can state our beliefs without derogatory comments towards each other.
Be that as it may, this is an extremely hot topic and posting a thread on it invites discussion on it.
And yes, I don't dig it. But feel free to dig it.
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Post by cyberstrike on Jun 6, 2012 17:10:51 GMT -5
I'm sick of people being defensive of the gay lifestyle and making them out to be victims. It started out with AIDS and people feeling sorry for them because they were dying horrible deaths. Well, if I went around rubbing my dick in rotten and decaying food in a trash can, I'd take a little more responsibility that it was a stupid fucking decision. What the hell do you think is coming out your ass? Decayed leftovers from your food where bacteria good and bad thrive. I'm sick of people confusing love and hedonism. I'm sick of people confusing love and entitlement. I'm sick of people thinking they deserve special rights because they are into ass fucking and tribadism. I don't have one ounce of sympathy for gay rights activists. I'm sick of religious hypocritical jackass conservatives who basically say "keep the government out of my life" then demand that the government tell people who to have sex with and what position they can fuck in. The same with the so-called "pro-life" anti-abortion nuts. They didn't sell it to me. I arrived at it on my own. You see I don't give a flying rat's ass about pop culture. Hell I do my best to advoid it. I don't know the actor who plays Thor for example nor do I give a fuck about his nationality, love life, or any of his social, religious, political beliefs. Other than Thor, The Avengers, and The Expendables 2 (which I think he's going to be in) I don't know anything else he's in. Guess what? I don't give a fuck. I have a strong dislike of pop culture. I don't follow trending topics, and unless I honestly have to love a franchise and even then I then I only pay attention when I want to. Now you might be wandering what does this have to with gay rights? I don't pay attention to pop culture. I don't give much a fuck about it. I don't watch "gay" movies, hell I don't even have any LGBT friends. I arrived at decision to support gay rights because love is to me is something very special. It doesn't matter to me if it's a man loves a woman, or man loves another man, or a woman loves another woman. Love is love. Marriage is something I will never know or experience, and I can help others to experience the joy and the pain of it, I get to a for a few minutes feel like I'm a worthwhile human being and in other words: THAT I'M WORTH A DAMN. Now that maybe considered selfish but I don't give a damn. I know deep down that I'm on the right side of history.
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Post by cyberstrike on Jun 6, 2012 17:38:09 GMT -5
Second, the topics are not about you. The topics are about themselves. I posted the topic and the article and linked to it. You were the first one responding to it and saying we need to get over it. Go back and look. Nobody had said anything yet. I find people wanting to know other people's sex life stupid and pointless. There are far more important real world issues that I think are far more important, than a person's sex life regardless if that person is real or fictional. I think people who make a big deal out this are at best care about others and at worse are bigots and I have zero tolerance for the latter. I find DF1's comments in this thread derogatory (and not to mention extremely STUPID). The problem is that in issues like this there are really aren't 2 sides, that a major problem with our so called news media false equivocally. If a guy says that sky is green, every network has to have counter-agrument. There is no counter argument. Giving time to nut, liar, or moron is just a way to destroy our country and world. To me there is no debate here or 2 sides to gay rights or civil rights in general either your with them or not. If your not then I think you're either an idoit, a bigot, or both. I don't like your position, because I think it's ultimately an evil position that leads to nothing but pain and suffering. Now you and Df1 can try to justify it to me all you want but from where I from hatred is a form of evil. I don't claim to be free of it myself, but at least I try to be honest about hatred of ultra-right wingnut teabagger conservatives. I do think that are some in Congress and Senate (not to mention the Tea Party) that would rather see me dead than to help me live even this meager pathetic existance I have. You know what? The real sad irony is that many of these people call themselves "Christians". The real irony on my part is that have no LGBT friends and I don't know any people personally who are and yet I can find compassion in my heart, why can't you?
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Post by G on Jun 6, 2012 18:23:44 GMT -5
Second, the topics are not about you. The topics are about themselves. I posted the topic and the article and linked to it. You were the first one responding to it and saying we need to get over it. Go back and look. Nobody had said anything yet. I find people wanting to know other people's sex life stupid and pointless. There are far more important real world issues that I think are far more important, than a person's sex life regardless if that person is real or fictional. I think people who make a big deal out this are at best care about others and at worse are bigots and I have zero tolerance for the latter. Posting the topic is not bigotry. I also don't have a problem with homosexual people in this world. What they do is their business. I've worked with them. I've even worked side by side with a known transgender for years. Never had a problem with her (him). My views have to do with not wanting comics that are not deemed "mature" to be dramatizing or even glamorizing the gay lifestyle. And I'll go on record and say I don't have much of a problem with Northstar being gay. We crossed that bridge a full 20 years ago. And even then it wasn't much of an uproar over it. It was handled very delicately. So I didn't have much of a problem with him getting married. I don't really care for seeing the image of him and his husband (wife?) getting ready to kiss on an all ages comics. Yes, all ages. And yes, all ages is my own problem. We have kids at ages of 6 or 7 or 8 realizing they are gay. Conversely we have kids the same age knowing full good and well they are straight. You can claim those gay kids need something to look up to. I conversely could say Im not for kids who are straight, innocent and less than 10 or 12 years old being presented with all age comic books with images of men kissing or about to kiss. That's pretty much my only beef with Marvel. I think the cover bothers me more than any part of it. The rest is mostly okay with me. I'll go on record with that. When Archie came out with the gay character Kelvin or Kevin or whoever he is, I bought it. Yep, I did. See, he was presented as gay from the get go. He didn't go around kissing other guys in the issue. The most outlandish thing was a girl was liking him and she couldnt understand why he didn't like her. She asked if it was another girl and he said no, its another guy. That to me was okay. I have a much bigger problem with DC. DC is taking a character who was never seen as gay for 70+ years and now saying, nah....he's gay. Not only that, they are promoting a shot that blatantly shows the two men full blown french kissing. Um, I'm not down with that. They can be gay all they want. This is crossing the line of mature subject matter. It's comics. I don't think Marvel and DC should be promoting these kind of images without mature subject warnings on the cover. You can see it as bigotry, hatred, etc if you want. I'm just not comfortable with comics becoming more about what you said, as concerning themselves with their sexuality. Something you said is dumb, than they are about making good stories of good overcoming evil. To put it even further. I didn't like their exploitation of Obama either. Presidents have been in comics for decades. Ive got comics with Richard Nixon calling the Fantastic Four for help. The thing of it is, he was the sitting President and they only showed him as a character. Marvel took Obama and made it a purely one sided viewpoint of him. Same with Image. They didn't have him as just a character in a story acting as a President. No, they cashed in on him being black. They done with him what they havent done with any previous president. They glamorized him. I have problems with Comics have a Political or Social Agenda. This is just me. You can get what you want out of it. I find DF1's comments in this thread derogatory (and not to mention extremely STUPID). The thing is. As much as you or I may find the post in general offensive is not a problem. I've always been on record as saying you can be outlandish as you want to be around here. You can talk the way you want. The thing he didn't do is say anything that flamed you or anyone else in here. He just made an outlandish point on his side. He never said one thing personally about you. That's the difference. The problem is that in issues like this there are really aren't 2 sides, that a major problem with our so called news media false equivocally. If a guy says that sky is green, every network has to have counter-agrument. There is no counter argument. Giving time to nut, liar, or moron is just a way to destroy our country and world. To me there is no debate here or 2 sides to gay rights or civil rights in general either your with them or not. If your not then I think you're either an idoit, a bigot, or both. I don't like your position, because I think it's ultimately an evil position that leads to nothing but pain and suffering. Now you and Df1 can try to justify it to me all you want but from where I from hatred is a form of evil. I don't claim to be free of it myself, but at least I try to be honest about hatred of ultra-right wingnut teabagger conservatives. I do think that are some in Congress and Senate (not to mention the Tea Party) that would rather see me dead than to help me live even this meager pathetic existance I have. You know what? The real sad irony is that many of these people call themselves "Christians". The real irony on my part is that have no LGBT friends and I don't know any people personally who are and yet I can find compassion in my heart, why can't you? There are 2 sides of this. And you're clearly and passionately on your side. And we can respect your beliefs or disagree with them. But Im not going to call you out as a person for feeling the way you do. I will continue to throw my beliefs out there much like you do. But personal insults will not be tolerated.
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Post by defiant1 on Jun 6, 2012 22:35:54 GMT -5
Second, the topics are not about you. The topics are about themselves. I posted the topic and the article and linked to it. You were the first one responding to it and saying we need to get over it. Go back and look. Nobody had said anything yet. I find people wanting to know other people's sex life stupid and pointless. There are far more important real world issues that I think are far more important, than a person's sex life regardless if that person is real or fictional. I think people who make a big deal out this are at best care about others and at worse are bigots and I have zero tolerance for the latter. I find DF1's comments in this thread derogatory (and not to mention extremely STUPID). The problem is that in issues like this there are really aren't 2 sides, that a major problem with our so called news media false equivocally. If a guy says that sky is green, every network has to have counter-agrument. There is no counter argument. Giving time to nut, liar, or moron is just a way to destroy our country and world. To me there is no debate here or 2 sides to gay rights or civil rights in general either your with them or not. If your not then I think you're either an idoit, a bigot, or both. I don't like your position, because I think it's ultimately an evil position that leads to nothing but pain and suffering. Now you and Df1 can try to justify it to me all you want but from where I from hatred is a form of evil. I don't claim to be free of it myself, but at least I try to be honest about hatred of ultra-right wingnut teabagger conservatives. I do think that are some in Congress and Senate (not to mention the Tea Party) that would rather see me dead than to help me live even this meager pathetic existance I have. You know what? The real sad irony is that many of these people call themselves "Christians". The real irony on my part is that have no LGBT friends and I don't know any people personally who are and yet I can find compassion in my heart, why can't you? I am being derogatory and I'll say worse. A pedophile tried to pick me up in a men's bathroom before I knew what sex was. It pissed me off then and I have an attitude about to this day. I'll mock homosexuality at the drop of a hat and I don't care what anyone thinks about it. I'll say a lot worse and tell you to go fuck yourself in the process. I have nothing to prove to you or anyone. They have a right to think and live like they want until it starts imposing on others. Asking for tax benefits or redefining "marriage" is imposing on me and my tax dollars. They march in their fucking parades, make their TV shows and I deal with knowledge of their lifestyle that I don't care to know. I don't feel as though society owes them a damn thing. My friend's brother is gay and he's mesmerized by me. He flatters me with compliments and I walk away wanting to vomit. I find his lifestyle repulsive and I deal with it. I used to work directly with a lesbian and I was one of the few people she liked. I'm one of the few people she communicated after she was laid off. If you were around me 5 minutes and you'll find I say far worse in crowds to people's faces than you've ever read from me online. Despite that, I can't even begin to count the number of people straight or gay who say I'm the nicest person they know. I had a woman tell a deacon at a church I was the most holy person she'd ever met and yet I still talk the way I do. I don't cower around other people's opinion. One thing that really annoys me is when unaffected people start standing up for other people they imagine to be victims when the people they imagine to be victims are perfectly content. Not every gay person is an activist telling me I need to pay for their health coverage because they like fucking each other in the ass or rubbing their clits together. Give me a fucking tax beak because I haven't burdened the court system with this shit. Married straight couples should be taxed more because a high percentage will get divorced. Gay people can pay their fair share in the middle. Anybody can come up with a rationale to say they are shortchanged. That's my take on things. The only pain and suffering is watching you try to rationalize your perception that those who disagree with you are bigots when in fact your attitude is bigoted. I reserve my right to disagree. I reserve your right to disagree also. For the record, I don't hate anyone. That doesn't mean I'm going to sit in a gay person's lap or open my ass cheeks for them, but I will say no when I mean no. df1
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Post by bigw1966 on Jun 17, 2012 9:32:17 GMT -5
With the exception of the comment about "G'S" parenting skills, I agree with all of Cyber's posts.
When I was younger, I had issues with Gay people. Primarily the whole sex thing. But then I realized that really, it doesn't affect me. I am not being hit on or having passes made at me by gay people. I do not have to watch them having sex and honestly, I couldn't give a shit. I don't want churches or the government telling me what I can or cannot do in my own home. Therefore, I see zero reason to petition the government to stop the evils of gay peoples existance.
The first thing everyone needs to do, is look at their own sexual feelings. What they think about. what bothers them. What they like. Then, push all of that shit into the background when looking at anyone else, and start off with looking at them as another human being. Once you look past the sex, you realize that they are people. just like you. Brave. Scared. Curious. Happy. Depressed. Working hard or Jobless. There is no differance beyond the sex. Which when you take a second to think about it, is really none of your business. That is why Gay people in life or in comics, really doesn't bother me.
Of course, I still have ZERO interest in watching Brokeback mountain.
The companies could probably have handled it better, but I am simply impressed that they are handling it at all.
As for redefining marriage, it is up to the state, not the church (No matter what you may think) who gets to decide what the definition of marriage is.
Its not completely about money, as I recently learned when my wifes cousin was in the hospital, and her partner of over 20 years did not have the recognized right to deal with her partners Doctors. Nor could she make the funeral decisions. Imagine if you were not able to do that for your wife. It would suck. All because some people out there cannot get past the fact that they have sex with each other. And that right there, IS THE ISSUE.
G you work in a call center. You talk to dozens of people each day. You cannot always tell if they are gay or not. But sometimes people who have that hangup, when they realize that the person they are dealing with is gay, have a noticable mood shift and suddenly treat the person differently. That is bad for business. I am now in sales. I deal with all kinds of people. I have to treat them all the same. No matter what I may think.
I also do not think you have to protect the little children, since they really are not buying comics these days, and there are books geared directly towards them which flow out of the popular cartoons they watch.
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Post by defiant1 on Jun 17, 2012 22:57:54 GMT -5
With the exception of the comment about "G'S" parenting skills, I agree with all of Cyber's posts. When I was younger, I had issues with Gay people. Primarily the whole sex thing. But then I realized that really, it doesn't affect me. I am not being hit on or having passes made at me by gay people. I do not have to watch them having sex and honestly, I couldn't give a shit. I don't want churches or the government telling me what I can or cannot do in my own home. Therefore, I see zero reason to petition the government to stop the evils of gay peoples existance. The first thing everyone needs to do, is look at their own sexual feelings. What they think about. what bothers them. What they like. Then, push all of that shit into the background when looking at anyone else, and start off with looking at them as another human being. Once you look past the sex, you realize that they are people. just like you. Brave. Scared. Curious. Happy. Depressed. Working hard or Jobless. There is no differance beyond the sex. Which when you take a second to think about it, is really none of your business. That is why Gay people in life or in comics, really doesn't bother me. Of course, I still have ZERO interest in watching Brokeback mountain. The companies could probably have handled it better, but I am simply impressed that they are handling it at all. As for redefining marriage, it is up to the state, not the church (No matter what you may think) who gets to decide what the definition of marriage is. Its not completely about money, as I recently learned when my wifes cousin was in the hospital, and her partner of over 20 years did not have the recognized right to deal with her partners Doctors. Nor could she make the funeral decisions. Imagine if you were not able to do that for your wife. It would suck. All because some people out there cannot get past the fact that they have sex with each other. And that right there, IS THE ISSUE. G you work in a call center. You talk to dozens of people each day. You cannot always tell if they are gay or not. But sometimes people who have that hangup, when they realize that the person they are dealing with is gay, have a noticable mood shift and suddenly treat the person differently. That is bad for business. I am now in sales. I deal with all kinds of people. I have to treat them all the same. No matter what I may think. I also do not think you have to protect the little children, since they really are not buying comics these days, and there are books geared directly towards them which flow out of the popular cartoons they watch. I have had gay men making passes at me. Implying that it doesn't happen is BS. It is about money. A lawyer can get a gay partner the rights to a living will or whatever they need. I'm sick of listening to all the whining. I speak for myself, not the church. When it comes to a vote I'll read exactly what the legislation is granting and I'll vote for if I agree and against if I don't. I can tell you now that I'm not voting for any legislation that redefines marriage. df1
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