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Post by G on Jul 1, 2012 10:57:15 GMT -5
G you work in a call center. You talk to dozens of people each day. You cannot always tell if they are gay or not. But sometimes people who have that hangup, when they realize that the person they are dealing with is gay, have a noticable mood shift and suddenly treat the person differently. That is bad for business. I am now in sales. I deal with all kinds of people. I have to treat them all the same. No matter what I may think. I also do not think you have to protect the little children, since they really are not buying comics these days, and there are books geared directly towards them which flow out of the popular cartoons they watch. I haven't worked in a call center for a couple of years now bigw, so that is not an issue here and even when I did, I didn't sell them anything, I supported electronic products and helped each and every one of them regardless of how they treated me or regardless of how I perceived them. Although comics have evolved into being most adults like us who read them, there are still children who have it for characters like Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, The Hulk, The Avengers, Captain America, Thor, The X-Men and on and on. I STILL will go on record and say I don't have much of a problem with what is going on except what I have already mentioned. But I STILL want to reiterate that the X-Men are still heroes to a decent amount of children as well as adults and I don't think as a comic company, its up to them to push these boundaries of society on children. My biggest issue is, if you're going to do something like this, label it "For Mature Readers" because it is a mature subject. Some children have not ever been exposed or even realize things like this go on when they are younger than 10 or 12. We need to stop thinking of it like adults. My biggest issue with Marvel is being responsible for what they are peddling (And they are peddlers). With DC, I am just totally disgusted.
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AC
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Post by AC on Jul 13, 2012 11:25:57 GMT -5
Quite the shit-storm, innit?
I really wanted to read through this entire thread to see if the issue itself was discussed at any length. I got to the first mention of "teabaggers" and "nazis" and realized the direction the discussion would be steered. (I was one FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS mention away from thinking I'd mistakenly clicked on a Robot6 article) My apologies if the issue, cover-to-cover has been discussed.
The issue, cover-to-cover, was... well, not very good. The writer, who I suppose we're not allowed to critique, because she's a woman... and for whatever reason, women comic creators are above most forms of criticism.
This, and the issue prior felt incredibly manufactured... it was as though Marvel was trying to cram a meaningful, long-term relationship between Northstar and his beau into such a short amount of time... but, it simply didn't work. I don't care about Northstar's beau. Maybe, if I had been given more than ONE story arc to get to know, and care about him... this whole publicity stunt would have appeared less so... and more meaningful.
This part, however, is by no means an indictment of the writer, Marjorie Liu (the trite dialogue and poor characterization/storytelling are a whole 'nother matter)... I'm guessing the order came on from high to be the first (of the big two) company to pander... errrr, promote gay marriage. If given a suitable amount of lead-in time... or, hell... maybe just ONE additional story-arc, wherein Northstar and his beau enjoy a two-week engagement... pick out a china pattern, yadda yadda....
Marriage is NOT a part of super-heroics, and as such, if we want to introduce marriage to this world, we need to meet it half-way, by showing the (super) characters going about their personal lives... reacting in situations and environments which the reader can relate to.
Back to the issue... a bit heavy-handed, and from time-to-time begged the question... like do we really need Havok malaising over "how his grandparents would react to this" to show just how pro-pro-progressive the world (annnnd Marvel) is today.
This speaks to the larger problem, and ultimately where I become disgusted by this stunt. By pointing out the surreality of this entire endeavor, all the while navel gazing, and patting themselves on the back... the creators do the gay community a great disservice.
You would imagine, if this were genuine... it would not be played for shock, instead it would be back-drop for the celebration of one character's love for another. It's 2012, seeing a man kiss a man or a woman kiss a woman is played out to the point of being passe. I would have a lot more respect for Marvel had this issue happened... without the three-ring PR circus, and visits to the cobweb crotches on the View.
The (socio-political) issue is, whether anybody likes it or not... important to a sizable portion of the community. I have no problem with gay rights, or gay marriage... was actually the best-man at a lesbian wedding/commitment ceremony about a decade ago. In fact, I hate the fact that the government is involved in the marriage "business" in the first place. Marriage... traditionally... is a religious sacrament, not a governmental rite of passage. By going to the government for "definition" we are GIVING the government the power to define.
One final bit here... on the manufactured element of this whole deal. One of the variant covers places Northstar and... (I really don't want to google to find out his fella's name... screw it...) Kyle's wedding picture among the pantheon of Marvel couples... I'm rather lost as to how we're supposed to compare this marriage to Reed and Sue... or Scott and Jean... or Ant-Man and Wasp.
This issue, however, may join the pantheon of comics that non-comic fans own... along with Amazing Spider-Man #583.
This post went on longer than I thought it would (and I'm not sure I even said anything), sorry 'bout the length.
tl;dr: This was a milestone event, ruined by hype, rush-job, and convenient mis-characterization.
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Post by bigw1966 on Jul 14, 2012 9:54:01 GMT -5
Defiant1; I used to get hit on constantly when I was younger. It annoyed the hell out of me. As I got older, and married, it stopped (Thankfully) It doesn't happen anymore. Anyone who talks to me for two minutes gets the hint. If you are still getting hit on (A "Pass is when someone strongly comes onto you or touches you in a way you do not like) You must be giving off the wrong signals.
G: I don't care if you still work in a call center. The point of it was that working in one, you speak to people from all walks of life. You know nothing about them Therefore, no personal biases come into play during conversation. There was no mention of you selling anything either. I mentioned that"I" now work in sales, and even if I dislike someone or something about someone I am dealing with, I still have to treat them properly.
Definition of marriage, IS the Governments place to decide, as it should be. The reason for this, is because not everyone is Christian or Muslim or Jewish. Therefore, requiring those people to follow the mandate of any religions views, who they claim no affiliation to would be wrong on every level. Marriage, is simply a contract. Not to mention, that the Biblical interpretation of Marriage is NOTHING AT ALL like what the modern church would like you to believe.
Comics, handle things very heavy handedly. That is just the nature of comics in general. You get 18-22 pages generally to tell your story and to make your point. This subject, especially in recent years, has been a hot button topic used to divide people.
Regarding kids buying comics; I asked Fantasy Escape about kids. The younger ones are not allowed in the store without a parent. Those accompanied, are given comics chosen by the parent for them. Not anything chosen by themselves. Still this is only one child for every 50 adults that come in. The average age of youth buyers, is 15.
I went to Trilogy and Gerald pretty much stated the exact same thing.
I have not spoken to Joey, but I am sure that in his store the kids that come in are more interested in playing Yougio than they are in comics.
Kids today, cannot afford today's comics. When we were kids they cost a quarter.
Bottom line, I do not think the kids have anything to worry about.
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AC
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Post by AC on Jul 14, 2012 11:54:27 GMT -5
I think I was sorta-kinda on your side in this argument... however, here is where we part ways... Giving the government power to make decisions about how we live our lives is a damned slippery slope. That's the ::shudder:: libertarian in me talking... I don't expect everyone to agree.
Also, taking into account that the biblical implications of marriage can be taken as... once you consummate the relationship, you are married in God's eyes... it's probably best to leave that out. Notice in my initial missive, I was very careful to say marriage was "traditionally" a sacrament... and not "the way it should be/needs to be".
Traditionally, in so far, as the majority of this country (if polls are to be believed) feels that way. I would never argue that gays didn't deserve all the pleasure and pain that (we) straight folks do. In my mind, that's simply unfair.
I don't feel that marriage is "simply a contract"... I cherish my marriage... the government-sanctioned "license" I had to fill out a week before I got married... that, I could care less about. I believe there's a difference between the two... however, I'm willing to accept that we all just think differently.
Nope... you get 18-22 pages A MONTH (often twice a month lately) to tell a story. When you cram a year's worth of story into a single month (or two in this case) you run the risk of telling an unnatural forced story which come off as back-pattingly heavy handed. Especially when the story's writer is more accustomed to writing Twilight fan fiction, than an over-arcing comics narrative.
Believe it or not, I bet there was a way to write this issue without Marvel putting it's elbow outta joint from patting their backs so furiously.
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Post by G on Jul 14, 2012 12:09:11 GMT -5
G: I don't care if you still work in a call center. The point of it was that working in one, you speak to people from all walks of life. You know nothing about them Therefore, no personal biases come into play during conversation. There was no mention of you selling anything either. I mentioned that"I" now work in sales, and even if I dislike someone or something about someone I am dealing with, I still have to treat them properly. Well I don't work in a callcenter anymore, but even if I did, I don't see your point. When you do your job, you do it regardless of who walks through your door or who calls you on a phone. Even the biggest racists and hate mongers in the world do it when it comes to their jobs. Making a sale to a gay customer doesn't make you holier than thou. I'd help the same gay customer with electronics over the phone. That's one thing I don't like about this subject because it seems to have undertones of "I'm better than you because I think this way" kind of attitude running rampant through it. It's not even about the comic(s). It's about the political and social statement. At least ace gave a review of the actual comic and judging from it, it seems a little rushed and shallow. This thread has been close to being dangerously ugly from start to finish. And the sides one chooses seems to have nothing to do with the comic but more to do with poking your chest out and proclaiming "this is how I think and you're thought processes are inferior because you don't agree with me". Stating why America and the World has progressed enough on the subject doesn't justify why its perfectly fine for comics. It just means we have progressed as a people. My main argument with Marvel has been to label it for Mature readers and tone down the men kissing covers if you aren't going to do even that. Otherwise, I don't care too much about it honestly. With DC, its why ruin a character NAME like Green Lantern who has a 70 year legacy in comics when there never was a hint of it before? Plus they went even further over the top with the imagery without a MATURE label. Whether we sell or assist gays at our job really has nothing to do with any of this. Definition of marriage, IS the Governments place to decide, as it should be. The reason for this, is because not everyone is Christian or Muslim or Jewish. Therefore, requiring those people to follow the mandate of any religions views, who they claim no affiliation to would be wrong on every level. Marriage, is simply a contract. Not to mention, that the Biblical interpretation of Marriage is NOTHING AT ALL like what the modern church would like you to believe. Politics...<yawn>.....Wrong message board. Comics, handle things very heavy handedly. That is just the nature of comics in general. You get 18-22 pages generally to tell your story and to make your point. This subject, especially in recent years, has been a hot button topic used to divide people. Regarding kids buying comics; I asked Fantasy Escape about kids. The younger ones are not allowed in the store without a parent. Those accompanied, are given comics chosen by the parent for them. Not anything chosen by themselves. Still this is only one child for every 50 adults that come in. The average age of youth buyers, is 15. I went to Trilogy and Gerald pretty much stated the exact same thing. I have not spoken to Joey, but I am sure that in his store the kids that come in are more interested in playing Yougio than they are in comics. Kids today, cannot afford today's comics. When we were kids they cost a quarter. Bottom line, I do not think the kids have anything to worry about. Who is to blame there? The kids? The comic stores? Who divides??? Who puts out product too expensive for kids? Who made them not care what happens anymore? It's the comic companies! Although MOST kids don't want a thing to do with comics, it doesn't mean every kid doesn't want to. I just gave a girl I know about 100 comics for her 7 year old kid because he likes superheroes and likes to draw. He was ecstatic! The potential to get kids involved is there. It's the incompetents at comic companies who don't know how to make it happen. Weren't we kids when WE started? I met you at a 7-11 looking at comics when we were 12 years old. What if you go back to that day and all of a sudden we pick up a comic with 2 dudes kissing on the cover? Who divided then? Something like that at that age might make me stop altogether. We can't keep saying that kids and teenagers don't read comics anymore. It's mostly true but its because everyone takes this same attitude at the top and doesn't do anything to change it. Also with this business model, it spells doom for comics because older guys like us die out, quit collecting and there is no one to replace us. You have to refresh your fanbase with fresh young customers if you're going to survive. Regardless, being irresponsible with covers and content and not labeling comics for mature readers shows a total disregard for kids and their parents and further divides kids to go sit over at the Yu-gi-oh tables and let the old farts like us who sell and support products to gay people as the only ones reading comics. You reap what you sew. Comics is sewing it's own demise. And those kids sitting in a COMIC STORE uninterested in comics playing Yu-gi-oh or Magic that you DISREGARDED will grow up and get our age and not give a FUCK about comics like we do. Who's fault is that? Is it the kids? The comic stores? No....it's your heroes.... The comic companies.
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Post by defiant1 on Jul 14, 2012 12:17:17 GMT -5
If the comic is going to capitalize on a gay theme, why not just show gay characters doing what makes them gay? Portray two guys butt-fucking and really show what makes a character gay. Lets see how many people care about the inclusion of the topic then. I might get confused and think they are just bi-curious if I don't see panels of buttfucking. C'mon.. it's lightweight to show two guy just looking at each other affectionately. Be bold. They should have the balls to REALLY make their statement.
Marvels portrayal of gays in the comic is the equivalent of showing Jeffrey Dahmer parking illegally. Aww! Poor guy getting maligned. I feel so sorry for Dahmer getting murdered in jail. He just liked screwing young boys and eating them later. Doesn't everyone get hungry at one point or another?
I don't have problems with gay people saying they are attracted to men and then acting like the sex they say they aren't attracted to. It's hypocrisy, but so is the rest of the world. I do have problems with them hanging out in Piedmont Park (a public park) in Atlanta and then running off into the woods to fuck each other so often that it leaves trampled trails. I do have problems with the people that hung out at the Sears and Woolworth's bathroom in the 70's to prey upon strangers that simply needed to take a leak. I have problems with a lesbian that married a man, had a baby, divorced her husband, kept the baby, and then continued her lesbian life. But damn! If gay sex ran it's course without being predatory in nature, there wouldn't be a propagation of it through the processes of nature (genetics) or nurture (learned).
df1
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Post by G on Apr 23, 2013 12:58:42 GMT -5
Saw this being pushed by my Marvel thread on Facebook today.... Of course half the comments were "this is so gay" and the other half was "bunch of homophobes". I think this is an issue of Young Avengers. I wonder if they should make Little Archie with scenes like this? I don't care if I get called a homophobe, or out of touch, or out of date or whatever. This just reeks in my opinion. I mean, if we're going to do this and have everyone who is all liberated just act like "Deal with it haters"....then I think we should have issues with God and Jesus and so on too. And not just a mention or anything like that. Maybe the X-Men try and push you to believe in God. By the end of the issue, Scott Summers can ask you to pray and give your life to God. How would THAT go over? I'll bet something like that would NEVER even be tried. I'm neither a homophobe nor a bible belter. I'm totally straight and believe in God but I haven't lived a God fearing life like I should. I don't care what gays do as long as they keep it to themselves and don't bother me with it, I could give a rats ass if 1 dude wants to stick his dick up another dude's behind. If it makes those 2 people happy, let them have at it. But man, I'm getting sick of all this coming out issues in comics. Or lets just have gave moments and stories and ask everyone to deal with it and half the people hate it and half the people defend it. It's not comics to me. It's shock propaganda. It's lack of talent. It's out of ideas. And I just don't feel like it belongs in MAINSTREAM Comics. I don't. You can be political all you want. Whatever. You can put them in their own category or have companies that cater to just gays. Like "Rainbow Comics" or something like that. I'm not saying it needs to be outlawed or their shouldn't or can't be a place for it. I'm just saying seeing scenes like this in MAINSTREAM hero books just seems wrong to me. I think if we can do all of this than I think we should be able to see Kitty Pride suck Colosus's dick. Let's see Storm get Buttfucked. Let's see the Joker have sex with children. Let's see holocaust murders and rapes and all kinds of stuff. I mean the gay stuff would seem weak then. Let's just go all out. Let's do it. I don't know what else to say... I'm disgusted.
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