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Post by G on Nov 21, 2007 21:07:08 GMT -5
Okay, I'll admit, this is probably going to be a bit controversial, but after watching the REAL rise and fall of Valiant and then watching it kept alive as a holy period of comics for so long now. I wonder, was it really all that??? Now, let me 1st say I never read all of the Universe, in fact, Ive probably only read about 20% of the books they created. So, I cannot give a full opinion on the entire history of Valiant. I will say, what I read I have enjoyed a lot. I appreciate how great Valiant was. And it was. It was kind of like Alternate Rock getting big in the mid 90's and regular rock was kind of lame for awhile. It was something that took on the establishment and said this is how it can be done if someone puts some thought into it. I appreciate the Universe it created. One thing I truly loved when I was reading Valiant books it tied into other areas of its Universe so darn well and at the same time totally stood on its own. But, it was blending into the titles so well, you really wanted to go and buy those other titles. And most of us did. But I also feel like the thrill left Valiant and its obvious that one of the most major downfalls of the company was losing Jim Shooter. After that shock shook off, there seemed to be a feeling of Valiant is getting...well...lame. And it didnt take long before I was hardly paying attention. Next thing I knew, they were done. And it almost seemed like "rightfully so" because it seemed like so few cared at the time. And now, all these years later. It still hangs on and seems to have a revival of fans and followers and well wishers and dreams of what might be. The new Hard Cover (which I havent seen but would like to) seems to have enthusiast cheering on a new rebirth and a new challenge to the big guns all over again. Could it happen? Maybe. I tend to think a relaunch might be hot for a brief time but will again go down in flames. Maybe I am wrong. I just dont see the same conditions for them to come back and rule the comic empires again. Comics ruled when Valiant emerged. Kids loved comics. Video games, although present, wasnt the only choice around. Yu-gi-oh style games wasnt nearly as rampant and had no where near the following. Comics had created a lot of hype and a lot of people following them at one time. It was almost like a perfect storm for someone different to come around with a new approach and take the comic world by storm by being such a surprise. Can the surprise sneak up on us again? I think the scrutiny will be too tough. How can it live up again? Can it? I dont know. I also want to leave it where it was and think in this day and age, with this technology we have, someone could create something great and new again that catches people off guard. The tools to do it are certainly there. But I dont feel like it is happening. But then again, I dont get many trips to the comic stores these days. Is there anything with such fan following to rival what Valiant did back in the early 90's? Dont get me wrong. I love Valiant. I think it was great. I think it was the high water mark of its time. But I hate to think that 15 years later we cannot do something great again. Something unique, original, well done and just plain awesome. And if somehow we did, I feel like it wont be Valiant doing it. Again, could be wrong. But I find it hard to believe it can do it again. I tend to think if it is ever possible again, it will be a new company with a new style of books, with new cover concepts and characters no one knows yet but will fall in love with quickly. They will create their own new buzz and as the word spreads, people will jump on and some unknown company of now is the one I see having a chance to create something hot again. I feel its great to reminisce about Valiant. But is it time to move on? I dont mean drop them and stop going to valiantfans.com or anything like that. But, are we carrying this love affair with Valiant too far? Or does it really deserve to be loved, cheered and defended for many more years to come with an undying hope that they will rise up and rule again? You tell me...
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Post by cfs on Nov 22, 2007 2:19:21 GMT -5
I let go of Valiant not long after Rai #0. I knew something bad had happened to Jim probably the day it happened because a local retailer had been calling the Valiant offices periodically and he sounded really disappointed one day after trying to get through. He conveyed to me that something was wrong. If you were hooked on pre-unity, it had a cohesiveness. Everything was linked deeply. It was interrelated. It was evolving as the stories were written. You were immersed in it all. After Shooter left, every plot lead was cut. Every story direction was changed. More effort was spent undoing what Jim had done. It went from being my favorite company to the worst. I still cared about the characters, but they weren't the same. I don't get a great joy out of insulting the work after Shooter was ousted, but I truly have no positive comments to make about it. Layton, one of the best inkers to ever work in the industry wasn't doing what he did best. I waited about 7 years for everyone else to give up on what he and his followers had done. I waited 7 years for someone to realize Jim Shooter was the key ingredient. I waited 7 years for Valiant to start from scratch and rebuild it all over again. So finally Jim is given a shot with Unity 2K. I don't know where the story was going, but I liked it. I trusted him to make the most. I had no expectations. 3 issues come out and everyone is whining. The fans let Bob Layton and Fabian Nicieza ruin it for years. They wouldn't quit whining about Jim's story after his first return issue. For me Valiant was dead at that moment Unity 2K was canceled. I even bought Armorines and Q&W because I trusted that Jim if given the opportunity could turn it all around. He was not given the opportunity and nothing short of giving him complete architectural control over a new revamp, I'm not interested.
Here is what I know.
1) Bob Layton had his shot at keeping Valiant good and strong. He failed. 2) Jim Shooter had an opportunity to come in as a writer and make a splash. He failed.
Short of giving Jim 100% of the editorial control, Valiant will always be a failure to me.
To expand upon this, I will also add that Jim Shooter was not Valiant. Valiant was everyone who contributed and it was the balance that arose. There was a need to succeed. The key players were seasoned veterans. They knew that if they didn't put out their best work that they'd have no job. Their best work went unnoticed for about a year. Even doing everything right took time to be noticed.
For Valiant to live up to what it was, it needs to overcome some hurdles which I believe are impossible. It needs Bob to step back to role as an inker and teacher. It needs Jim to want to come back and work with Bob. It needs Barry Windsor Smith to come back with his serious story ideas and artwork. It needs Don Perlin to be a reliable artist and contributor. It needs David Lapham to provide a solid and consistent art. It needs Jade Moede to give up painting and come back to coloring. It needs Janet Jackson to give up on her ambition to be an illustrator and go back to being one of the best colorists in the industry. It needs to jump ahead to technology of 2007 and everyone needs to admit that the 1990's ideas Valiant was based on have been used by many people since.
I have a slight clue what Jim's perspective is about Valiant. I even have a theory that the Renoir painting in the 8 page Harbinger story might be a hint. That's just a guess, but I have a theory.
Valiant will never be what it was. Valiant was more than the characters. Valiant was an attitude towards quality. It was everyone caring and everyone bringing critical skills to the work at hand. Dino isn't the missing variable. Walter isn't. Bob Layton alone isn't. For me, the rabid fans at Greg's site are living in a surreal fantasy world. Yes, many of us do appreciate the magic, but that magic show is over. Time for next trick. ..
cfs
P.S. No, I didn't buy the hardcover. I was sent scans of the story by someone who wanted my opinion. A rep from VEI flat out lied to me about some things. I have zero respect for the new owners. I don't care who they know or who they hire.
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Post by G on Nov 22, 2007 11:01:08 GMT -5
Great post cfs! I kind of figured you might have an opinion on this. I wonder what others would think. I agree with you saying that it was everybody doing the best possible work at the best possible time and Jim Shooter was the secret ingredient that made it all happen, but certainly not the only ingredient. I seen something saying a new hardcover was going to come out with X-O collected. Something like that. I personally think its kind of cool. But is this so far going to be a collection of reprints with a couple of teaser stories thrown in? Im not sure where they are going. Are they going to produce actual comics down the road? But that's not the heart of this thread. To me its....are we making too big a deal out of Valiant? I mean the greatness is recognized and appreciated. But its 15 years ago now. It seems like we are living in the past with Valiant and hoping for a rebirth and stories like they once were. They get praised to high heaven by everybody and I also love them as great works. But is there nothing else out there that can make us feel like this about comics again? Because it seems rather sad that 15 years later we havent created nothing else by any company that created quite this buzz. Is there not anything else worthy?
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Post by cfs on Nov 22, 2007 14:23:46 GMT -5
Great post cfs! I kind of figured you might have an opinion on this. I wonder what others would think. I agree with you saying that it was everybody doing the best possible work at the best possible time and Jim Shooter was the secret ingredient that made it all happen, but certainly not the only ingredient. I seen something saying a new hardcover was going to come out with X-O collected. Something like that. I personally think its kind of cool. But is this so far going to be a collection of reprints with a couple of teaser stories thrown in? Im not sure where they are going. Are they going to produce actual comics down the road? But that's not the heart of this thread. To me its....are we making too big a deal out of Valiant? I mean the greatness is recognized and appreciated. But its 15 years ago now. It seems like we are living in the past with Valiant and hoping for a rebirth and stories like they once were. They get praised to high heaven by everybody and I also love them as great works. But is there nothing else out there that can make us feel like this about comics again? Because it seems rather sad that 15 years later we havent created nothing else by any company that created quite this buzz. Is there not anything else worthy? Jim Shooter learned directly from the icons at DC & Marvel. He learned from Stan Lee and Steve Ditko personally. Nothing against all the people who have new ideas, but they don't hold true to the lessons embedded in the old ideas. BWS knew a lot. Bob Layton knew a lot. Combined they were more than the parts. Is everyone living in the past? Yes. No doubt in my mind. Once Everest has been climbed, that second tallest mountain isn't so menacing anymore. It isn't as special. Any revamp of valiant is a further milking of what was. I've grown tired of the milking process I see. cfs
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Post by G on Nov 23, 2007 12:09:49 GMT -5
Is there any other run or era in comics since then that can rival what Valiant did?
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Post by cfs on Nov 23, 2007 19:30:41 GMT -5
Is there any other run or era in comics since then that can rival what Valiant did? The closest thing I can compare Valiant to is EC. It took 40 years to do what EC did. Maybe in 2032 we'll have a repeat? cfs
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Post by Brother J on Nov 24, 2007 9:57:51 GMT -5
I think there are some misconceptions in this thread. First of all, gowaltrip, I think your view is that VALIANT comics might be overrated. I think it only appears overrated to you because you are mainly associating with die-hard VALIANT fans on message boards like Greg's and even here and on Lyria. The average comic fan, even the ones that were around back in the 90's, aren't ga-ga over VALIANT comics. Go to a show and ask the average fan about VALIANT, and you'll likely get a blank look or maybe a comment or two if they recall the 90's boom and bust. I get the same thing if I go to a local comic shop and try to discuss VALIANT books with someone there. Most of the time they just don't care.
It's also going to be next to impossible to generate the kind of attention that VALIANT had in it's heyday. The comics market is much smaller than it was then. Add to that the fact that VEI can't even get it's hardcovers shipped through Diamond, so their product isn't going to reach the casual fan.
As for another point, I don't think most expect VALIANT to re-capture it's Pre-Unity and Unity glory. It can't be done and anyone who thinks it can is just fooling themselves. I'd like to think the majority of VALIANT fans, even the die-hard ones, are just hoping for quality work to be put out with the characters we love from the original days of VALIANT. I don't think you're ever going to see Shooter work regularly for VEI, I'm almost 100% positive BWS has no interest in any thing VALIANT, and Bob Layton is working on several other things, as well.
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Post by G on Nov 24, 2007 10:58:10 GMT -5
I certainly dont want to be thought of as a hater here because nothing could be further from the truth. I own 6 full boxes of Valiants and would want nothing more than to finish my run. I have even spent time and have a lot of Vol 2 and a few Vol 3's. I have spent a lifetime it seems collecting, selling and recollecting Valiants. But, I can see how this thread is making others feel like I have a slant of them being over rated. And I think brotherj, you have a fantastic point that most of the boards we hang at vf.com, lyria and even cfs's board has a lot to do with how we view Valiant. I guess what is missing to me is the love people have for Valiant for other companys and periods. Some people might say X-Men #94 - 141 was awesome....but you dont see website popping up about it and fans jumping on making many a successful message board out of it. It makes me wonder why we never had that much love for another comic company or era? Comics is dying genre. I certainly agree with that. But after 30 years of collecting comics (well next year that is), I seem to recall so many other great eras in comics. I have a ton of memories from days gone by. Just dont see the celebration for those other great moments. And I wonder why not? Valiant was and is great. I love em and want them all. I just wonder...where is the rest with such a fervent following?
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Post by cfs on Nov 24, 2007 23:47:59 GMT -5
I never read Valiant because I liked the characters. Magnus had been around a long time as had Solar. I thought the original characters were lame. Upon reading the stories that Jim Shooter had written, I was sold and hooked. People may not believe this, but I first realized who Valiant was when I asked my retailer what Bob Layton was doing. He pointed me to Magnus and mentioned Jim Shooters name. I said "who". He explained. I said "Oh, yeah... I think I've heard of him." So the quality lured me in... it sure looked better than Rob Liefeld. I was about to quit collecting new comics as soon as I had gotten back into it.
cfs
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Post by G on Nov 25, 2007 9:02:12 GMT -5
Do you think the new owners have plans on creating actual monthly titles? And if so, do you think they can sway Shooter back into doing them? I'm just being hypothetical, but wouldnt they have to give him almost complete control for him to even consider it?
I'd almost be willing to give it another real shot if he was involved on the day to day business. I realize the other pieces would still have to fall into place, but isnt that what he would try and do?
Is this just way too much of a pipe dream and wishful thinking? What's the best we can expect?
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