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Post by cyberstrike on Oct 17, 2009 8:54:22 GMT -5
You just gave me an idea for a future thread, thanks. I guess I'm coming back full circle with this thread, is Jim Shooter the last hope for the way we knew things? Is he the bright hope of the future? Or really is Jim Shooter irrelevant to what happens to the future of comics? Although I see how it would be easy to say that Jim Shooter doesn't matter, I'd have to say that all signs seem to point to he DOES matter and he does make a difference to the comics world and what direction it is going. I just don't know how much. The thing is Jim Shooter coming back to write Magnus, Solar, and others just isn't interesting me anymore. It feels like a nostalgia act to me. I'm sorry but for me Solar, Magnus, and Turok are part of the Valiant Universe and if these characters are not part of the VU then I'm not all that interested. Right now the ONLY series that DH is releasing that I want to read is Mass Effect: Redemption. Actually I'm new old school. If you ever read Marvel's Transformers series plots are sometimes as long as 25 issues. That's what I enjoyed about writers like Simon Furman and Peter David that they actually have a long term storyline that go for long periods of time like Peter David's Supergirl in the full first arc started in #1 and ultimately ended in #74. I think some writers feel that if sales go down they will be fired and/or the series will be canceled and don't want to start a story that can't finish. It's also that a lot of writers can't draw. I think a lot of it also that since the 90s where the artists were considered to be more important the writer, now we see it going the other extreme, where the writer is more important that the artist. Who was the bigger star titles like The Walking Dead, Wanted, Noble Causes, Transformers: All Hail Megatron, The Life and Times of Savior 28, The Astonishing X-Men, and several others? It's the writer that gets more of the attention than the artist.
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Post by G on Oct 17, 2009 18:00:26 GMT -5
You just gave me an idea for a future thread, thanks. I guess I'm coming back full circle with this thread, is Jim Shooter the last hope for the way we knew things? Is he the bright hope of the future? Or really is Jim Shooter irrelevant to what happens to the future of comics? Although I see how it would be easy to say that Jim Shooter doesn't matter, I'd have to say that all signs seem to point to he DOES matter and he does make a difference to the comics world and what direction it is going. I just don't know how much. The thing is Jim Shooter coming back to write Magnus, Solar, and others just isn't interesting me anymore. It feels like a nostalgia act to me. I'm sorry but for me Solar, Magnus, and Turok are part of the Valiant Universe and if these characters are not part of the VU then I'm not all that interested. Right now the ONLY series that DH is releasing that I want to read is Mass Effect: Redemption. Well, I don't know what universe Magnus, Solar and the others are out of. Are they out of the Valiant Universe or is the Valiant Universe without them? I personally found Magnus and Solar to be 2 of the stronger characters that Valiant had. And with Valiant (er VEI) not having those properties, it makes VEI weaker to me. The Rai's and the Shadowman and the X-O Manowar and the Harbinger were all good titles. But they came after Valiant launched with Magnus and Solar. To take it a step further, instead of being uninterested in Magnus and Solar, why be interested in Valiant characters at all? I'm with you when you say it seems like a nostalgia act. Sometimes I'm at the point where I want either Valiant to come back, run their course, be in the news, hot again and inevitably flop again and get that side of it over with. Or rather, just be gone totally and never heard from again like so many other characters, titles and companies that came and went and were never heard of again. I'm kind of sick of Valiant being the big boner of comics that everyone walks around with every time their name is spoken. There comes a point where Valiant either needs to get with it or go away. At some point, this waiting for the promised land of comics that will never come seems to eventually be causing more harm to comics than good. Comics needs to progress and very often it feels like Valiant impedes progress. Valiant seems like a mirage. An Oasis. If we ever get there, will it ever taste nearly as good as we remember it? I doubt it. Actually I'm new old school. If you ever read Marvel's Transformers series plots are sometimes as long as 25 issues. That's what I enjoyed about writers like Simon Furman and Peter David that they actually have a long term storyline that go for long periods of time like Peter David's Supergirl in the full first arc started in #1 and ultimately ended in #74. I think some writers feel that if sales go down they will be fired and/or the series will be canceled and don't want to start a story that can't finish. In the old days, writers and artists didn't worry about finishing their story. They came in and put their own flavor, story and art into their assignment and went to work. When it was time for some new artist or writer to take over, they didn't reinvent the wheel, the new artist or writer just picked up where the story left off and kept plugging along like the writer or artist never changed. Too many artists come in and act like its a fresh starting point for the character and they are going to do things their way. Thats when I get alienated and stop buying. We don't need to give Spiderman new webbing or a costume change every time someone new takes over the comic. Stop worrying about the ego of YOUR story. Worry about the integrity or the story and the character you're working on and deal with it. If the story is more about your spin on it and your vision, you're probably doing more damage to the character than good. It's also that a lot of writers can't draw. I think a lot of it also that since the 90s where the artists were considered to be more important the writer, now we see it going the other extreme, where the writer is more important that the artist. Who was the bigger star titles like The Walking Dead, Wanted, Noble Causes, Transformers: All Hail Megatron, The Life and Times of Savior 28, The Astonishing X-Men, and several others? It's the writer that gets more of the attention than the artist. You may be right about that. I'm not too sure because I've been unable to stay with comics for the last year or so. I see things like Chew and Walking Dead and a few others where it seems like the writing is getting hailed as the next greatest thing and certainly the decades best. But sometimes I think its just overhyped comics with a very low average bar surrounding it. If 80% of comics are bordering on junk, you don't need a lot to really stand out. Comics need more serious competition. For me the biggest disappointment in comics is to be sitting here in 2009 with plenty of decent artists and writers capable of producing comics to a level we seen back in the pre-Unity Valiant days and better yet, having absolutely NOTHING to do with Valiant and creating quality up to that level and beyond and yet comics just doesn't do anything collective anymore to reach those kind of levels of greatness. Instead you go to the LCS's and see the same pose covers coming at you and the same drivel you've seen for the past 15 years thats been shoveled at us as something they tell us is a great product and yet the numbers continue to decline for them and the fans keep quitting and yet comics can't collectively decide to stop Bullshitting the public and put out something really good again like they did over and over and over before comics decided to hit a roadblock around the mid 90s. I'm talking the kind of comics that 25 years from now we'd all look back at and go "Those comics kicked ass!!!". Instead people think I should look no further than a comic like the Walking Dead and think that is worthy of legendary praise 25 years from now..... Please...
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Post by defiant1 on Oct 17, 2009 21:57:54 GMT -5
The thing is Jim Shooter coming back to write Magnus, Solar, and others just isn't interesting me anymore. It feels like a nostalgia act to me. I'm sorry but for me Solar, Magnus, and Turok are part of the Valiant Universe and if these characters are not part of the VU then I'm not all that interested. Right now the ONLY series that DH is releasing that I want to read is Mass Effect: Redemption. There is no way to make everyone happy. The thought of Jim Shooter having to work with Bob Hall to come up with something that appeals to MOTA is not going to appeal to me at all. Working at Valiant creates too many problems and too many questions. Before I ever visited Greg's board, I wanted a Valiant revival. When I read all the words of people who came on board after Jim left, I realized that it is over. df1
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Post by G on Oct 17, 2009 23:06:06 GMT -5
There is no way to make everyone happy. The thought of Jim Shooter having to work with Bob Hall to come up with something that appeals to MOTA is not going to appeal to me at all. Are you shitting me in any way shape or form? Has it got to the point where some overenthusiastic guy on a message board is now someone who must be appeased for comic creation decisions?
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Post by defiant1 on Oct 18, 2009 5:23:31 GMT -5
There is no way to make everyone happy. The thought of Jim Shooter having to work with Bob Hall to come up with something that appeals to MOTA is not going to appeal to me at all. Are you shitting me in any way shape or form? Has it got to the point where some overenthusiastic guy on a message board is now someone who must be appeased for comic creation decisions? 1) To your first question am I "shitting you", my answer to that is ALWAYS the same no matter who asks it. "I wouldn't shit you, you're my favorite turd" 2) I just threw out a name. It was to illustrate an extreme view that all continuity must be kept. Obviously nobody has to be appeased, but if they aren't you don't sell any product. You have to appeal to the greatest number of fans. You have to create a starting point that will enable the sales goal to be obtained. The sales goal should factor a stable and loyal customer base and it should enable growth. It's easier to get rid of elements than it is to make someone accept ones they don't want. Dark Horse is doing that. They are taking it back to the foundational roots... the original idea itself. VEI is trying to start with Bob Hall on Shadowman. It didn't appeal to me or rather keep me interested 15 years ago. Why would it now? That's like putting your sales goal at the top of a slide and pushing them. The chances are great that sales will go one direction... down. There are too many stages of experimentation at Valiant. Too many ideas on what should be kept or not. "A house divided will not stand" Defiant1
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Post by G on Oct 18, 2009 11:23:32 GMT -5
I should have known you were speaking metaphorically and not looked at it with a literal slant. By the way, I've never had a favorite turd. Some were good and some were bad, but all were turds.
It's the returning to roots that I find exciting. Its what I want to see and its what excites me about Shooter, because I know he is someone who knows what the roots are and can make us see them again.
But I also think of your audience angle and think I am no longer the audience and my views are the minority and the majority is very much okay with the drivel being put out there now. And when I openly vent, its because I'm not realizing that it's not about me. As long as the general audience is okay with it, it will go on the way things are.
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Post by defiant1 on Oct 18, 2009 14:16:20 GMT -5
Take specific issues and break it down.
Everyone feels like Giffen ruined the stuff he did. Keep it or not?
Psi-Lords Keep it or Not?
Biker Geomancer. Keep it or not?
Dr. Mirage. Keep it or not?
NONE of that is Valiant to me. It's utter crap that ran off the Valiant fans. Pre-Unity & Unity attracted the readers. The Bob Layton era stuff ran them off. I'm also sick of people saying what a success Quantum & Woody was. It was a high profile flop. People may like it, but it was a failure like all the rest of the Acclaim stuff.
Shooter most assuredly arranged for Random House to get Broadway & Defiant. I think this move was his best option. I think Valiant is over and without Shooter it's not interesting. VEI can publish all the want. I don't care about what they are going to force onto me. The Shooter stuff at Valiant is like fresh fruit on the vine. Everything after that is like rotten fruit that fell off the vine and decomposed. Dark Horse is offering us fresh fruit again.
defiant1
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