|
|
Post by G on Apr 22, 2010 10:22:44 GMT -5
As witnessed on just about any message board including here, it seems one way to get a good heated discussion going is to put down books made by a company others greatly like. It almost appears rare to find collectors who will collect in a very broad range. Typically the collector will lean heavily toward one brand or group of books and anything outside of that realm will be looked at as an inferior product. There may be many past experiences the collector is holding onto and it is keeping their perspective on current and future products slanted one way or another. Perhaps even missing out on solid works because of some predisposed bias against a company.
I personally consider myself growing up a Marvel Zombie but I've always felt I freely dabbled in just about comic I felt worthy of my money. Sadly I wasn't always correct, but I still purchased different things anyway. Currently I feel Marvel has one of the worst output of comics currently available. But that is only from a first glance. I'm not seeing anything that generally interests me and therefore I do not buy them. Although if I did see something of interest, I am still open to purchase it. As well as I feel I would purchase from any company if I felt it was a promising book.
Still I know others who would not buy under any condition or circumstance. They've closed their self off to the option of buying anything put out by a particular company no matter what the reviews or who made it.
Being that companies are constantly changing, is it fair to label a company by past experiences and close them off completely from future purchases? Are collectors missing out because they are just too stubborn?
Are comic collectors too brand loyal for their own good?
|
|
|
|
Post by bigw1966 on Apr 22, 2010 12:43:23 GMT -5
I think that many people who are comic fans start off in a similar fashion. That being, they discover a character in some fashion that appeals to their nature or personality. That pulls them in and exposes over time all of the other characters thereby building the interest in seeking out more of what is available.
In some ways, this breeds brand loyalty, but even that is only going to last so long. Eventually you discover work from another company Big or small press and you find yourself dragged deeper into the realm of fandom.
One thing that is consistent, is that Superheroes are the gateway. they let us live our power fantasies. They in theior way teach us the things that our parents and schools have tried to but we ignored it because of who was giving that information to us.
But, eventually the comic fan comes to a crossroads in their hobby. They may grow out of it when they discover girls. Or they have to quit because of financial reasons, or even because they feel they have gotten to old for the medium in question.
Looking at my own history and interest in comics, i find that even though I think I am outside the norm, I am actually closer than I once thought.
Here is what I mean.
All of my life, I have been a voracious reader. I have also never been one to stick with one genre or author. I tend to bounce around based on interest.
so I read scifi, Horror, Espionage or spy stories. I even read about things like speculative religions or alternate history and things of that nature. Even as a kid I was like this but primarily it was all fiction that I read.
Comics were another avenue, but at the time the only things widely available were Superheroes. Other than that, you had the great Gold Key Classics Illustrated. That was actually how I discovered writers like Melville and Hemingway.
to me, Superheroes really only fall into one category and that is SciFi. think about it, They are all given powers by the following. Some ancient aritfact. Some scientific experiment or accident or even Alien involvement. SciFi through and through. so As a kid I had to fill my appetite for adventure both from comics and also from various Novels.
Well as I grew up and saw my interest waning, I one day discovered VERTIGO from DC. These books renewed my interests Mainly because as I aged, I saw comics stuck in the same place and they were reaching a point ofIrrelavence with me. Then Sandman came out. Then Preacher came out. suddenly the writing was smarter. Suddenly writers were talking about subjects that were at once of Interest to all but considered taboo in debate. From there it just continued to expand and diversify.
The great thing is is that VERTIGO by the nature of its stories actually had an impact on the Industry as a whole. Sure you could site WATCHMEN and DARK KNIGHT for getting the ball rolling, but VERTIGO threw it out of the park and now all comics owe some thanks to VERTIGO.
so as time has gone on I have found myself following titles less based on who the character is and more on who the creative team is. If a certain Writer or Artist or team has done something in the past that I found enjoyable, I will give the new work a shot. Some people pay off more than they fail. I mean everyone fails once in a while, but some people are consistently good.
Like Warren Ellis. Here is a very prolific writer who in one month could write about a police story, a Scifi super Assassin or even a book that all at once shows the ridiculous nature of Superheroes and how man in his infinate wisdom can continually advance towards his own destruction.
I am talking about the title SUPERGODS.(Avatar Press) This is a title that talks about how the various major countries on earth all had a SuperSoldier program running and what they did was try to physically recreate their mythical Gods in an effort to save the Earth. Of course the gods come to the realization that the only way to save the Earth is to kill all of the people. It also touches deeply upon how the motivations of the characters are based upon the cultural beliefs of the actual Countries who created them. The book is actually much better than the description I have given.
My point though is that Ellis can shift from Genre to genre with professional ease and it works great. not all writers can do that either well or at all. He does it with ease and a high rate of success for his efforts.
I want to be entertained. I want a story that touches a nerve or forces an emotional response.
suych as The Walking Dead (IMAGE COMICS) Here is a book built around the often used premise of the zombie Apocolypse. The thing is though is that in any given Issue of the book , the total number of appearances the zombies make totals no more than two pages. They are a maguffin. A plot device that is in place to tell a bigger story. In this case, the bigger story is a study of humanity. how they react and survive in this impossible situation. how they try to maintain a sense of normalcy fopr their children.
This title is filled with so much emotional weight, that when a major character meets his fate (something that can and does happen when you least expect it) It stays with you. It hits you like a gut punch and makes you sad.
that is the kind of thing I want from my comics.
I don't need some hackneyed ass positive message.
I don't need some political debate presented to me in comic form. Even though I am open to it.
I just want to be entertained. I just want to be surprised.
So if a title or a companyDoes something that I don't like, I just don't purchase that title for a while. Or I avoid that companies books for a bit. But I never get all financial solution on any of that stuff because its just entertainment and its not always perfect.
I think in regards to fans or collectors, they fall into a couple of similar categories.
The fans of the entertainment aspect of it: Escape, power fantasies, Brain twisting Ideas et al;
The fans of the Art and stories: Self explanetory
The speculators: People that think the value will help them retire
The Nostalgia fans: The people whose primary view of comics exists within a timeframe that they felt happy in life or where major things happened to them where they can see a comic from that time and be reminded of other events.
Some people only fall into one of these categories. Others may fit into all of them.
Myself I fit at least 3 of them.
Nostalgia being the least. I am not very nostalgic. I tend to not live in or reuminate on the past very much. I try to look forward.
That said, It can still hit. Example: I still remember what was on the shelves at the 7/11 back in 1980 when me and gowaltrip first met.
beyond that, not so much.
Anyhow, hope this is interesting to read and not a wall of text LOL.
|
|
|
|
Post by defiant1 on Apr 23, 2010 0:27:17 GMT -5
As witnessed on just about any message board including here, it seems one way to get a good heated discussion going is to put down books made by a company others greatly like. It almost appears rare to find collectors who will collect in a very broad range. Typically the collector will lean heavily toward one brand or group of books and anything outside of that realm will be looked at as an inferior product. There may be many past experiences the collector is holding onto and it is keeping their perspective on current and future products slanted one way or another. Perhaps even missing out on solid works because of some predisposed bias against a company. I personally consider myself growing up a Marvel Zombie but I've always felt I freely dabbled in just about comic I felt worthy of my money. Sadly I wasn't always correct, but I still purchased different things anyway. Currently I feel Marvel has one of the worst output of comics currently available. But that is only from a first glance. I'm not seeing anything that generally interests me and therefore I do not buy them. Although if I did see something of interest, I am still open to purchase it. As well as I feel I would purchase from any company if I felt it was a promising book. Still I know others who would not buy under any condition or circumstance. They've closed their self off to the option of buying anything put out by a particular company no matter what the reviews or who made it. Being that companies are constantly changing, is it fair to label a company by past experiences and close them off completely from future purchases? Are collectors missing out because they are just too stubborn? Are comic collectors too brand loyal for their own good? I'm not loyal to any brand anymore because the quality level is so inconsistent everywhere. Like you, I was a Marvel loyalist and I was proud to say so. Marvel told long running stories that evolved with tight continuity. There were standards to their art. Their universe was collectible for us, but still a big challenge. On any mention of DC or Marvel, I prefer Marvel characters. Because I have years under my belt disliking DC characters and years of compiling reasons, it is unlikely that I will ever buy a Superman comic and be excited about it. When the death of Superman issue came out, I thought "cool, it's about time". Marvel unfortunately has dipped so low in quality that it's negated any favored status it was getting. I still like their characters better, but I'll never wish to sort out their stupid decisions in the 1990's and beyond. The Spiderman clone war was the final straw. Image never created a large expanding universe with tight continuity, so it will never fit the mold of what I liked most about comics. If you break it out further, you get to self-published indy titles or companies like Dark Horse that continue licensed properties or otherwise work like a bunch of self published indy titles.. For that it's a title by title thing. The single writer/creator self-publishing his own work is the most reliable quality you can get now. Unfortunately, most of these books have no delivery reliability. You may only get two books a year from some creators. Overall though, I thumb through countless comics, sample the dialogue, the text, the art. A new book really has to have a lot to offer more than the thousands of unread comics already in my collection. I bought them with the intent to read them, but wasn't excited enough when the time came. I can always go back and read all the unread comics which is why something needs to really be head and shoulders above what I already own or I have a difficult time caring about it. df1 |
|
|
|
Post by G on Apr 23, 2010 12:10:34 GMT -5
I'm not loyal to any brand anymore because the quality level is so inconsistent everywhere. Like you, I was a Marvel loyalist and I was proud to say so. Marvel told long running stories that evolved with tight continuity. There were standards to their art. Their universe was collectible for us, but still a big challenge. I have to say, I really miss the way Marvel used to be. If I'm labeled as nostalgic (which I have no problem with), I think they have it the most over me during the same period you are talking about here. I know what you are referring to. I know those standards and that tight continuity you mention. These things you mention are something I very much miss about comics. When the death of Superman issue came out, I thought "cool, it's about time". Marvel unfortunately has dipped so low in quality that it's negated any favored status it was getting. I still like their characters better, but I'll never wish to sort out their stupid decisions in the 1990's and beyond. The Spiderman clone war was the final straw. With a few exceptions, Marvel seems terribly weak to me these days. They seem too fad driven. They've dropped a ton of the values that made them great. They are actually making me hate some characters I used to love. I still look to them to buy comics, but I often find very little I want to purchase. Image never created a large expanding universe with tight continuity, so it will never fit the mold of what I liked most about comics. I think Image has matured Greatly OUTSIDE of their core Superhero characters. But sadly every time I try to like their heroic characters, it just fails miserably with me. It always feels to me that they appeal directly towards one type of collector and have little to no interest of pulling those who don't care much for their characters in. I always get the impression that the attitude is "Oh well, lots of people DO like us the way we are, so that's YOUR problem". With their superheroes its like you either like them or you dont. If you don't, they just don't seem interested in trying to make you like them. 17 years later, when I see the original characters, I still have the same exact feelings now I had then. Overall though, I thumb through countless comics, sample the dialogue, the text, the art. A new book really has to have a lot to offer more than the thousands of unread comics already in my collection. I bought them with the intent to read them, but wasn't excited enough when the time came. I can always go back and read all the unread comics which is why something needs to really be head and shoulders above what I already own or I have a difficult time caring about it. df1 Although I'm not as rigid as you, I do think I've greatly limited my new purchases to only things that look like they have potential. Which has me searching ALL companies for a glimmer of what I am looking for in a comic. It almost seems like there is a huge untapped area of comics which at one time was saturated and has now been left behind and cast off as outdated. I think there are still a lot of collectors out there who are waiting on the sidelines for something like that to happen again. I think that is part of the buzz with the Valiant comeback, but I personally don't feel this is going to be any different than what's being put out by all the other companies. I don't feel this will be the 2nd coming of Valiant. I always feel we need another company like Valiant emerge and shake things up again in a Valiant like way. But I also strongly feel it need not be Valiant nor do I think it will be Valiant. There is NO WAY Valiant can ever sneak up on us again. Too many eyes watching it and just seems a recipe for unmet expectations. But if you remember how they emerged and how their comics were put together, I think a company who launched with similar ideals could hang in the background for a period of time and just keep churning out stuff like that until hopefully people start to notice and word of mouth starts going around, just like what happened with Valiant. I think if a company fully merged both what was great from the forgotten values of the past with what is great from writing, artists and technology standpoints of today, it could be very big and get a lot of people back in who have been sitting on the sidelines for years now. |
|
|
|
Post by cyberstrike on Apr 23, 2010 12:47:13 GMT -5
I'm not a collector in the sense that I buy books for to get slabbed by CGC and resell them at inflated prices (the same with toys) I buy comic to read it now maybe I'll read it once and that will be it, a hundred times, or at certain times of the year, or when I'm in the mood.
As too be loyal to a brand or a character other than Transformers, I'm not loyal to any company, character, or creator. I'm more willing to try a series out if certain writers and artists (Jim Starlin, Peter David, Alan Moore, Dave Gibbons, Stan Lee, Frank Miller, Jim Lee, Neal Adams, Jae Lee, and others) are working on it and if they write or draw a comic I might willing to give it chance even if it's a character or concept that I generally don't like, loathe, despise, or hate (characters like Hal Jordan, Batman, and Stupid Hulk for example) because I trust them to give me a great story and/or art when they leave if I feel that the next creative team is NOT up to my standards I drop the book.
Also I freely admit that not everything that Peter David or Alan Moore wrote is a classic or every book that Jim Starlin and Neal Adams wrote and drawn is a classic. They all have written and/or drawn some crappy stories and when I feel that they are not delivering the quality that I want then I leave the series.
When Peter David left Aquaman and The Incredible Hulk I left the series because he was giving me great stories and I wanted to see what happened next month when he left so did I because the next creative team went in directions that I did not enjoy and I'm going to waste money and time on something that I don't enjoy. After the "Hush" storyline in Batman I gave the series an extra 6 issues because I read somewhere that Loeb and Lee would return to series but when I found out that they weren't I dropped the series like a bad habit. The same with the "Godfall" and "For Tomorrow" arcs in the various Superman books if weren't for the late Micheal Turner and Jim Lee I never would have would bothered with it.
The reverse is also true if writers and artist that I hate like Mike Mingola (sorry his style has NEVER appealed to me) or Pat Lee (if you see his name attached to any book DROP it immediately) I don't care who's writing the book I won't waste my money with them.
I prefer character driven stories over action stories, sure I like a great fight as much as the next guy but if I can't relate to the characters on some level then I will get bored and leave the book no matter who's writing it or drawing it.
Other than Transformers, I'm not loyal to any character, brand, company, or even to creators to some degree.
I'm loyal to good storytelling.
|
|
|
|
Post by defiant1 on Apr 23, 2010 19:37:07 GMT -5
I'm not loyal to any brand anymore because the quality level is so inconsistent everywhere. Like you, I was a Marvel loyalist and I was proud to say so. Marvel told long running stories that evolved with tight continuity. There were standards to their art. Their universe was collectible for us, but still a big challenge. I have to say, I really miss the way Marvel used to be. If I'm labeled as nostalgic (which I have no problem with), I think they have it the most over me during the same period you are talking about here. I know what you are referring to. I know those standards and that tight continuity you mention. These things you mention are something I very much miss about comics. With a few exceptions, Marvel seems terribly weak to me these days. They seem too fad driven. They've dropped a ton of the values that made them great. They are actually making me hate some characters I used to love. I still look to them to buy comics, but I often find very little I want to purchase. I think Image has matured Greatly OUTSIDE of their core Superhero characters. But sadly every time I try to like their heroic characters, it just fails miserably with me. It always feels to me that they appeal directly towards one type of collector and have little to no interest of pulling those who don't care much for their characters in. I always get the impression that the attitude is "Oh well, lots of people DO like us the way we are, so that's YOUR problem". With their superheroes its like you either like them or you dont. If you don't, they just don't seem interested in trying to make you like them. 17 years later, when I see the original characters, I still have the same exact feelings now I had then. Overall though, I thumb through countless comics, sample the dialogue, the text, the art. A new book really has to have a lot to offer more than the thousands of unread comics already in my collection. I bought them with the intent to read them, but wasn't excited enough when the time came. I can always go back and read all the unread comics which is why something needs to really be head and shoulders above what I already own or I have a difficult time caring about it. df1 Although I'm not as rigid as you, I do think I've greatly limited my new purchases to only things that look like they have potential. Which has me searching ALL companies for a glimmer of what I am looking for in a comic. It almost seems like there is a huge untapped area of comics which at one time was saturated and has now been left behind and cast off as outdated. I think there are still a lot of collectors out there who are waiting on the sidelines for something like that to happen again. I think that is part of the buzz with the Valiant comeback, but I personally don't feel this is going to be any different than what's being put out by all the other companies. I don't feel this will be the 2nd coming of Valiant. I always feel we need another company like Valiant emerge and shake things up again in a Valiant like way. But I also strongly feel it need not be Valiant nor do I think it will be Valiant. There is NO WAY Valiant can ever sneak up on us again. Too many eyes watching it and just seems a recipe for unmet expectations. But if you remember how they emerged and how their comics were put together, I think a company who launched with similar ideals could hang in the background for a period of time and just keep churning out stuff like that until hopefully people start to notice and word of mouth starts going around, just like what happened with Valiant. I think if a company fully merged both what was great from the forgotten values of the past with what is great from writing, artists and technology standpoints of today, it could be very big and get a lot of people back in who have been sitting on the sidelines for years now. \ I'm not getting the vibe yet with Dark Horse. Too much "business as usual. " Keep in mind that BWS felt VERY betrayed by Mike Richardson. df1 |
|
|
|
Post by bigw1966 on Apr 24, 2010 9:52:00 GMT -5
Its funny that Cyberstrike mentions Pat Lee. I mean, that guy has made his own bed, but the sad part is that Troy, my friend who is working on the ZUDA comic with me just finished doing some great inking work in a 4 issue series called Widow Warriors that Pat drew. This is Troys big break in Comics and all across the net, people are boycotting PAt Lee.
Hopefully Troy will get some notice for his solid work even though he is now tied to this guys rep.
Regarding Valient, I never thought they did anything particularly noteworthy, except do a good job of bringing back classic characters at a time when people wanted an alternative to the big 2.
Yes, I am a fan and I recognise a few of the things they did, but they did not make heroes more heroic. In Fact, Solar destroyed the Universe in issue 10 of his series and had to rebuild it in his image.
None of the others were without fault either. They were all good characters though.
Shooter did a great job with them, but his complete unwillingness to accept input from others has always been his downfall.
I personally think the guy is a smug prick. Thats the impression I got the couple of times that I met him.
But, I don't buy the books for him i buy them for the stories. And he is a good writer.
With comics changing the way they have been, I think that newer comics to have an impact that Valient had will probably fall into a category that opens the door to a wider range of readers than the followers of Superheroes.
time will tell though.
|
|
|
|
Post by G on Apr 24, 2010 10:33:03 GMT -5
Regarding Valient, I never thought they did anything particularly noteworthy, except do a good job of bringing back classic characters at a time when people wanted an alternative to the big 2. While I loathe what Valiant became and I generally don't get the crazy following they've had all these years, I do think they had an extraordinary launch. Their core group of books were very well made, had excellent covers and stories and they all tied together as a cohesive group of books. The covers alone were looking unique and great as a set, they also provided insight instead of just poses or stare downs that we see so much of today. In the end though, just like everything, they turned to crap and not long after Shooter left did I even pay attention to them. The one thing I really remember though was they literally just snuck up on people. They weren't flying off the shelves when their 1st issues came out. They remained hidden in the background until collectively they looked like they had a nice deal going and people were starting to look. I'm pretty sure Magnus was around issue 7 or so before Valiant really started getting hot. By time everyone caught on, the good times were nearly over. I'm looking forward to the Dark Horse relaunch but as Defiant1 said, I think it's going to be business as usual with Dark Horse and we aren't really going to have a product that is any different than most other comics out there. I'm not really digging what I've seen so far personally. I just don't think Valiant will ever capture it's glory again. Maybe some of the Gold Key characters will one day live to see things like movies made of them and maybe that will bring the hype back to them. I could see that. But only then could I really see Valiant really getting a lot of attention again. Unless this launch just blows people away. And so far, I think it has letdown written on it. But I do think a new unknown company could sneak up on us again like Valiant did in the early 1990s. And I'd love for that to happen. I really think it would take a very strict enforcement of values and quality and following a well devised game plan. Perhaps once again they would be "discovered" after about 7-8 issues of their books are out and its clear to see the quality has been surprisingly consistent throughout. I don't think this can be accomplished by just releasing a bunch of mini-series and miss-matched stories. Valiant is a great example of an across the board effort for a launch. |
|
|
|
Post by bigw1966 on Apr 24, 2010 10:48:09 GMT -5
I admit that they did plan far reaching continuity from the start, that wa mainly Shooter.
I also liked the fact that even though the Image Style was dominating comics at the time, that Valient used a bunch of seasoned veterans like Don Heck who were excellent draftsman to do their books. They may not have been flashy, but the books WERE the most solid put together books on the stands at the time.
|
|
|
|
Post by defiant1 on Apr 25, 2010 6:33:22 GMT -5
I admit that they did plan far reaching continuity from the start, that wa mainly Shooter. I also liked the fact that even though the Image Style was dominating comics at the time, that Valient used a bunch of seasoned veterans like Don Heck who were excellent draftsman to do their books. They may not have been flashy, but the books WERE the most solid put together books on the stands at the time. You meant to say Don Perlin, but you are correct. df1 |
|
