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Post by G on Jun 6, 2010 8:32:56 GMT -5
Something else I want to bitch about is the over abundance of mini-series. A long time ago a mini-series used to be special and marked an important event to a character or group of characters. It was self contained but yet had impact on what happened elsewhere. There was a place for it and it worked when done.
Nowadays there is way too many mini-series and there is no significance to it than to be just another story arc. Now comics are being launched on a monthly basis with the only intent than to sell anywhere from 4-12 comics and that is it. In some cases, that is still okay because you never see the title again, but in others you get more mini-series later and a jumbled timeline of the character and events thereafter.
What is the most unnerving is when it is done to tried and true characters with long histories and mainstream runs that instead of fitting the story into existing titles, they run a mini-series and act like it is special. To me it is a sign of short-sightedness. Of not thinking how to incorporate a story into the characters timeline, nor thinking beyond it once the story is completed. These are issues that comic companies USED to have to deal with. A story used to have to fit into the realm of what was out there. Now it doesn't. Now we can write and put out as many mini-series as we want and we don't have to even care how it affects the character in its normal standard run because that took place in a mini series and not in the normal run. Haha, like it doesn't even matter. It's just a mini series.
Mini-series have become the old reliable standard of comics today. Its as if comic collectors cannot be trusted beyond a few issues. Even the new Magnus title by Dark Horse is a 4 issue mini series. You would think after 10 years of no comics and a fervent fan base, they could trust the readers who've waited with baited breath to consume more than 4 issues. Surely there will be more issues of Magnus beyond the initial 4. Why couldn't it have just been a continuing ongoing series like Solar? #1's sell better than number 13s.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be mini series, but I am saying it's gotten out of hand and should be policed a lot better than it is. It's gotten to the point of being reckless. Once again when I look at Previews and scope out potential buys, I'm seeing more books that either begin or are part of a mini series than I am of ongoing characters. It's getting rare to see a comic above the issue #12 unless it was already a historic character to begin with like Batman, Spiderman, Fantastic Four, Captain America, etc. New comics just don't seem to be seen as a possible long term vehicle anymore and instead of chancing it and thinking big picture, the character is put out with an ending clearly already in mind.
I'm still for the old way of putting out comics on an infinite run and whatever doesn't sell, give it the axe and whatever does, let it keep going. This concept seems outdated now and instead replaced with "we'll put out a mini series and if it sells well, we'll put out another".
If there is research still going on, I'd like to raise my hand and say I'd rather see monthly comics that make it or bite the dust than mini series that don't seem to care either way.
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Post by cyberstrike on Jun 6, 2010 10:59:01 GMT -5
I don't like the continuing series of mini-series. Stuff like The Transformers Books of Furman from IDW. After Infiltration #6 was followed up by Stormbringer #1. After Stormbringer #4 which led into Escalation #1, and so on. I got sick of it because the stories never ended at the end of the series it was always to be continued in the next #1. What was the fucking point of the whole mini-series I just read? TO ME a mini-series should be a complete story with a beginning, middle, and end and at the last issue it should say "The End" period.
Now their have been mini-series or maxi-series that have major ramifications for a line of comics (like Marvel's original Secret War and DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths) that was because they were intended to change the Marvel Universe and DC Universe. I have no problem with that but when it's a series of mini-series that never resolve the story lines in each series that is just being lazy and stupid.
IDW knew Transformers would sell, but I could forgive them if they did Infiltration as a test run or to set up how their Transformers Universe was going to work, and after #6 they launched an ongoing series, but they didn't. It took them almost 4 YEARS to give The Transformers an ongoing series.
They had no problem with doing plenty of one-shots, mini-series, and a maxi-series though.
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Post by bigw1966 on Jun 6, 2010 11:08:29 GMT -5
I can see both sides of this argument.
From the one side I like to see continuing series of characters that can grow and change over time. however when you are dealing with characters who never age and never die because that goes against profit.
continuity used to be a great thing, but it seems to be more of a burden these days. so shorter runs can tell a story that deals with the character for one brief moment in time.
now Many of the mini series that are out nowadays, are part of a larger narrative. an example would be the FRONTLINE books that tie into every major Marvel event. These tell stories related to the larger narrative bet from the standpoint of the press or the common man.
These are good mini's that allow some of the smaller background players to shine.
Like Ben Urich.
The recent Black Widow mini was to tie into Iron Man obviously, but it had a second purpose. MARVEL is currently trying to entice girls into comics by haveing many female centric book with female creative teams.
Now this may be a profitable thing, but no major corporation will invest 10's of thousands of dollars into creating a new series with a long term plan without seeing positive results.
If the fansbuy it and word of mouth is good, it usually gets a series.
Even those canfall apart quickly though.
Then, we have titles and characters that I feel should only exist within a mini series.
characters like sub-Mariner and Aquaman. These guys may be great characters, but honestly there is no way anyone can relate to living underwater. Also the location limits what you can actually do with the character unless you constantly remove him from his element.
With those guys I think that If you have a good story about them, tell it and move on.
This goes for Hawkeye and most of the X-MEN characters as well.
I think Mini series or Anthologies based within a title family, like an Avengers Anthology is a logical next step with the price changes happening.
Also it is how comics were made up through the 50's.
Have a main title like Avengers that gives you 24 pages of story,
then fill the book with a few 8 pagers with characters that couldn't carry a title and have those stories events tie into the overall arc of the main story.
I have a similar Idea for this to help get people to go to the web to read comics.
Basically have the main story in print, but then have seperate but related stories with the B-List characters in the tale only availible online.
Bottom line they will not go away until people possess the ability to predict accuraely what will sell and what won't.
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Post by defiant1 on Jun 6, 2010 12:04:58 GMT -5
It used to be that publications had to register their titles to ship subscriptions through the mail. For that reason, it was a hassle to start up new publications. That is why most publishers would get around that by continuing the numbering from an old series and just changing the title. Hence, Journey Into Mystery turned into Thor. Amazing Adventures changed to Amazing Adult Fantasy, then Amazing Fantasy. The practice was to avoid starting new series. Marvel's distributor went bankrupt in the late 50's and caused what is now known as the Atlas implosion. Marvel was forced to use DC comic's distributor and they put a limit on how many titles Marvel could publish. That's why Iron Man had to share a book with Captain America and Submariner had to share a book with Hulk. In the late 60's, Marvel went with Curtis Distribution. This opened the door for them to publish as many titles as the liked... and they did. Silver Sirfer got his series. The aforementioned heroes quit having to share a comicand they split off. Marvel published non-superhero titles like Li'l Kids & Groovy. The number of collectors had increased and become organized, so they collectively jumped on any #1 they could get. After all, #1's were a special happening. Marvel grew, increased market share and DC's sales started hurting. Wonder Woman sales were reportedly in the 20,000-30,000 range and DC even considered having Marvel produce their books for them. Eventually they started copying Marvel when the direct market came to be. They started releasing #1's and hiring Marvel creators like Frank Miller to do series Ronin. DC started benefiting from the influx of new talent and the restructuring of their approach to do comics. A new #1 became a guaranteed sales increase. Companies like Pacific popped up and they too benefited from releasing new series' with a #1 issue. B&W companies popped up releasing #1's marginal quality until the market was flooded with comics. There was a B&W comic implosion in the 80's and the industry was hurting again. Eventually the market started rebuilding with the creators that would later start Image. They catered to a different type of collector and Marvel started doing well again. The whole industry grew abnormally fast and publishers continued to release #1's because collectors buy them like sheep.
Mini series are no longer special events. They are stopping points for people to quit reading a character. Collectors use mini-series as an ending spot where they can stop buying comics. They walk away knowing they have the whole series and there is no regret.
#1's still cause spikes in sales and Diamond is partially to blame for it. They encourage publisher to do anything to create a spike in sales, because they want the extra cut. It is a short term gain. Unfortunately, mini-series are a long term loss because many collectors get tired of them and eventually quit buying them. The #1's still create a spike in sales but it is not enough to counteract the long term loss of readers. Variants are the same way. A short term gain, but collectors get fed up with them. The king of mini-series and variants is Harris comics. They have as many as 15 variants for one miniseries #1. I know of no collectors trying to collect all the Harris comics.
If you don't like them, quit buying them. Eventually Marvel & DC will get the hint.
df1
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Post by G on Jun 6, 2010 15:21:14 GMT -5
If you don't like them, quit buying them. Eventually Marvel & DC will get the hint. I try not to. But if you're buying new comics in this day and age, it almost becomes a challenge NOT to buy anything that doesn't come from a mini or a maxi series. There is some great points being brought up in this thread and I would like to reiterate that I'm not totally against mini or maxi series. I'm just against it getting out of hand. As Cyber put it, I don't want to see 6 minis of one title before you decide to do an ongoing monthly. I can understand one, maybe two, to test the waters. But dammit. If a mini series ends, don't expect me to jump onto "Next issue: over at the NEW TITLED #1!!!" Jumping from one mini to the next is plain milking of the customer. I also agree with BigW that some character should ONLY be released in Mini-Series. Lets face it, there are too many lame characters out there that don't deserve a monthly. So a complete story arc on that character would be a good time to warrant a mini or a maxi series because quite honestly, they don't deserve more. So that would make another good use of mini series. But I also personally believe that all new characters who never existed before should be launched with a mini series. I mean fuck testing the waters with a mini on everything. If you think a title is going to be good as a company, have the balls to put it out as an ongoing monthly. Sometimes that alone is enough to show the company itself has faith in the product. To launch a brand new character with a mini just shows you're uncertain. Damn, think of all the comics that came out back in the day that just dove straight in feet first. Would Fantastic Four have worked for all these years if it was launched with a 4 issue mini? The Infinite Crisis and Secret War's Maxi series was another GOOD use of Mini/Maxi series. It was indeed a special event that had significance on both universes. And DF1 hits it on the head when he points out its all about money and incentives drivenfrom the likes of Diamond and the publishers. Its all about the Money and the fans are the ones being treated like sheep. As long as they keep giving success to mini series, they'll keep doing it until nausea sets in. Like I said, its damn near impossible to stay away from mini/maxi series in today's market if you're buying . But I do think being selective and telling publishers mini's don't work for everything is the only way to get the point across. Stop buying those (insert title like: Batman Mini series) if none of the above applies. Stop letting the formula of sheep-herding customers with endless minis work. Be selective and let the others stink up the joint. Stop supporting the nonsense when it is nonsense. |
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Post by defiant1 on Jun 6, 2010 16:57:50 GMT -5
What was wrong with Marvel Premiere for spotlighting new heroes that may not be worthy of their own title? What was wrong with Marvel Spotlight for spotlighting a hero that isn't worthy of their own title? What was wrong with Marvel Team-up for testing out lesser characters? What was wrong with Marvel Tales for reintroducing fans to the Silver age classics? Marvel did everything right in the 70's. It's like they've forgotten what worked.
df1
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Post by cyberstrike on Jun 8, 2010 15:15:57 GMT -5
What was wrong with Marvel Premiere for spotlighting new heroes that may not be worthy of their own title? What was wrong with Marvel Spotlight for spotlighting a hero that isn't worthy of their own title? What was wrong with Marvel Team-up for testing out lesser characters? What was wrong with Marvel Tales for reintroducing fans to the Silver age classics? Marvel did everything right in the 70's. It's like they've forgotten what worked. df1 They don't sell anymore that is what's wrong with them. Other than Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight and maybe the new The Web of Spider-Man series, I can think of NO other anthology title by any major publisher still going (and I'm not sure if Legends of the Dark Knight is still around). I know Image tried 2 different anthology series Darker Image and Double Image (and each lasted 1 issue and 4 issues respectfully). DC has tried several anthologies over the years: Legends of the DCU and JLA: Classified, and a Vertigo anthology whose title escapes me at the moment, all were canceled a little after 16-24 months. Also when most of the titles now are days are driven by TPB and HC sales not the monthly series, stuff like anthologies and try-out series are considered by the publishers (and I guess by the fans as well), not to be worth the effort. I think some of it is the writer, artist, or creative team don't stick around for longer than 25 issues now of days (some do but most are lucky to stick around for 6 issues). I mean the last 25 issues or so of the last JLA series ever arc was 6 issues that when it was done the creators left the series and new one took over. |
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Post by G on Jun 8, 2010 18:47:59 GMT -5
Not only is there no longer any anthology series, I got to thinking today.....how often nowadays is there a launch of a SUCCESSFUL character these days? I'm talking 50+ issues (which historically would be modest).
Everything is so small scale these days. Is there another hero to be discovered now that could have long term commercial success? It doesn't seem much like they aim for that anymore. You get a few books that can have a few successful Mini's/Maxis or a TPB's and the next thing you know, that's considered a success. Lets make a movie out of it! Half the country don't even know who the character or characters are yet. But it sold out of 3 TPB's so it must be good!
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Post by defiant1 on Jun 9, 2010 1:39:38 GMT -5
What was wrong with Marvel Premiere for spotlighting new heroes that may not be worthy of their own title? What was wrong with Marvel Spotlight for spotlighting a hero that isn't worthy of their own title? What was wrong with Marvel Team-up for testing out lesser characters? What was wrong with Marvel Tales for reintroducing fans to the Silver age classics? Marvel did everything right in the 70's. It's like they've forgotten what worked. df1 They don't sell anymore that is what's wrong with them. Other than Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight and maybe the new The Web of Spider-Man series, I can think of NO other anthology title by any major publisher still going (and I'm not sure if Legends of the Dark Knight is still around). I know Image tried 2 different anthology series Darker Image and Double Image (and each lasted 1 issue and 4 issues respectfully). DC has tried several anthologies over the years: Legends of the DCU and JLA: Classified, and a Vertigo anthology whose title escapes me at the moment, all were canceled a little after 16-24 months. Also when most of the titles now are days are driven by TPB and HC sales not the monthly series, stuff like anthologies and try-out series are considered by the publishers (and I guess by the fans as well), not to be worth the effort. I think some of it is the writer, artist, or creative team don't stick around for longer than 25 issues now of days (some do but most are lucky to stick around for 6 issues). I mean the last 25 issues or so of the last JLA series ever arc was 6 issues that when it was done the creators left the series and new one took over. You can't entirely go by that. There are principles for success that must be nurtured. Too many people want an instant fix to the low sales problem and the things that got the industry in this predicament took YEARS to play out. There is a principle called the laws of the harvest. You reap what you sow. Plant tomato seeds and you get tomatoes. You reap later than you sow. A seed takes time to grow a plant before it produces fruit. You get more than you sow. One tomato seed will produce multiple tomatoes, not one. They need a reprint series so that those few people who are interested get pulled into the history of the character. If they need to boost sales, put a high quality backup feature... maybe 8 pages of new content. Spiderman fans would buy a Marvel Team-up book. You can't tell me they wouldn't. It makes more sense to nurture new characters along in a Team-up book than it does to release a mini-series. It creates a connected feel to the individual book. People will buy the comic just to have the continuity. Marvel doesn't need to have one mega-crossover book. They used to have lots of smaller crossovers that didn't bleed your wallet. df1 |
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Post by cyberstrike on Jun 9, 2010 19:33:35 GMT -5
They don't sell anymore that is what's wrong with them. Other than Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight and maybe the new The Web of Spider-Man series, I can think of NO other anthology title by any major publisher still going (and I'm not sure if Legends of the Dark Knight is still around). I know Image tried 2 different anthology series Darker Image and Double Image (and each lasted 1 issue and 4 issues respectfully). DC has tried several anthologies over the years: Legends of the DCU and JLA: Classified, and a Vertigo anthology whose title escapes me at the moment, all were canceled a little after 16-24 months. Also when most of the titles now are days are driven by TPB and HC sales not the monthly series, stuff like anthologies and try-out series are considered by the publishers (and I guess by the fans as well), not to be worth the effort. I think some of it is the writer, artist, or creative team don't stick around for longer than 25 issues now of days (some do but most are lucky to stick around for 6 issues). I mean the last 25 issues or so of the last JLA series ever arc was 6 issues that when it was done the creators left the series and new one took over. You can't entirely go by that. There are principles for success that must be nurtured. Too many people want an instant fix to the low sales problem and the things that got the industry in this predicament took YEARS to play out. There is a principle called the laws of the harvest. You reap what you sow. Plant tomato seeds and you get tomatoes. You reap later than you sow. A seed takes time to grow a plant before it produces fruit. You get more than you sow. One tomato seed will produce multiple tomatoes, not one. They need a reprint series so that those few people who are interested get pulled into the history of the character. If they need to boost sales, put a high quality backup feature... maybe 8 pages of new content. Spiderman fans would buy a Marvel Team-up book. You can't tell me they wouldn't. It makes more sense to nurture new characters along in a Team-up book than it does to release a mini-series. It creates a connected feel to the individual book. People will buy the comic just to have the continuity. Marvel doesn't need to have one mega-crossover book. They used to have lots of smaller crossovers that didn't bleed your wallet. df1 I agree but the sad truth is that almost all the major companies who have put out anthologies and/or team up books have been canceled in the past few years. Amazing Fantasy vol. 2 canceled. Tangled Web canceled. Ultimate Marvel Team Up canceled. Legends of the DCU canceled. JLA: Classified canceled. Dark Horse Presents canceled. Double Image canceled. Just to name a few. Other than Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight, Deadpool Team Up and maybe the new The Web of Spider-Man series (I'm not sure what exactly that book is since I refuse to buy any Spider-Man since OMD/BND began) seem to be the only anthologies and team up books being published by any of the major publishers. If no one buys them then why should any publisher put them out. |
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