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Post by G on Jun 4, 2010 14:36:42 GMT -5
To kick off my new thread area called "Rants" (look for it in the General Comics Discussion area), I'm going to make my initial beef against Group Staredown and Fanout Covers! I am so sick of these kind of covers that I could die! Not only do they look gay as hell, they offer absolutely nothing to tell you what you are going to get inside. Follow that with cheesy grimacing poses, flying characters flying like angels and ground troops in ready position stances against some unseen villain then you end up with a group of heroes looking like they are in some sort of ballet or something. It just doesn't look realistic at all. I don't think if I was ever going to dive into a fight against a group of people that before the fight broke out, they would all bust a pose for me to see right when I was going in. To me, this just lacks imagination and it's went on way, way, way too long! Look at any Previews magazine and count how many times you see a group cover with a bunch of retards posing and fanning out for you. When this is all I see on a cover, it makes me believe that comic readers today are just a bunch of pretty picture sheep. Baaaaaaaaaaa!
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Post by defiant1 on Jun 4, 2010 19:47:32 GMT -5
As you know, I agree 100% with your assessment.
I noticed in one image the female character has her back arched forward with her boobs poking out. Not just a little arch, but to a severe degree. Even if this were possible, what woman ever stands like that? What kind of personality would a guy have to have to constantly stand with his arms down by his side, hands cupped like a fist, with his chest poked out? These images make the heroes look flat out vain. On the Michael Turner cover... why the hell are the heroes on the front looking away from everything including each other?
I can't stand these nor can I stand the covers that have a single image of a hero with an "Ooops! I screwed up." look on their faces. There are other stupid thing going on. One guy wears a body armor while some girl is wearing a bikini. Seems like someone is over or under dressed. It seems like this would be a major topic of discussion if a group of people were in a huddle. Either that or "how many outfits do you have? Do you ever change clothes?"
Covers with Punisher grouped with Hulk bothers me. If Hulk can't solve the problem, then WTF is the Punisher going to do? If Iron Man can't fix a problem, the WTF is Hawkeye going to do? You have dipshit heroes running alongside mega-powerful heroes. The powerful ones are not once telling the wimps that they are a bigger liability than they are a help. Some of these group shots don't make any sense even if they had posed for a camera one day.
df1
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Post by bigw1966 on Jun 5, 2010 10:17:08 GMT -5
Now granted, I used the Carlos Pacheco Ultimate Avengers one as a background for a while. But, I am 200% in agreeance here. That means I even agree a 100% with you defient 1 LOL.
I have been disgusted by these covers since the late 90's when they suold have ended. The only comics that seem to have good covers anymore are the damn Vertigo books. At least they have a sense of design to them or tie into the story in some capacity.
I have been wanting to go to a Marvel panel at a show so badly and get up during the question round and hold up one of these , explain my extreme disappointment before tearing the book in half to show my disgust. I would be very blunt in my assessment. I think saying what needs to be said in front of a crowd of about a 1000 people would get the message across much better.
The worst part of it is that the lack of imagination in coming up with fresh ways to present the same image on a bunch of covers. All they end up doing is swiping latouts from other uninspired covers.
I cannot look at comics today that are say a year old and say aw hell yeah that was a great story. But look at comics from the 70's or 80's and you see the cover and its like Oh yeah, this is the first appearance of Thanos.
Or an FF cover with Subby and thing fighting on the cover. That would get my money.
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Post by defiant1 on Jun 5, 2010 11:18:46 GMT -5
Now granted, I used the Carlos Pacheco Ultimate Avengers one as a background for a while. But, I am 200% in agreeance here. That means I even agree a 100% with you defient 1 LOL. I have been disgusted by these covers since the late 90's when they suold have ended. The only comics that seem to have good covers anymore are the damn Vertigo books. At least they have a sense of design to them or tie into the story in some capacity. I have been wanting to go to a Marvel panel at a show so badly and get up during the question round and hold up one of these , explain my extreme disappointment before tearing the book in half to show my disgust. I would be very blunt in my assessment. I think saying what needs to be said in front of a crowd of about a 1000 people would get the message across much better. The worst part of it is that the lack of imagination in coming up with fresh ways to present the same image on a bunch of covers. All they end up doing is swiping latouts from other uninspired covers. I cannot look at comics today that are say a year old and say aw hell yeah that was a great story. But look at comics from the 70's or 80's and you see the cover and its like Oh yeah, this is the first appearance of Thanos. Or an FF cover with Subby and thing fighting on the cover. That would get my money. In this hobby, you grow up knowing who the focus is centered around. It's easy to buy into the hype and say "yeah, he's everything they say he is." Kirby for example did expand a dynamic storytelling method. Stan Lee had the early Marvel artists draw in the Kirby style of action & flow. Starlin's work stood out in a positive way when he came out. Neal Adams , Steranko, Windsor-Smith.... they all had a light shining on their work an deservedly so. Should they be treated like immortal icons today because they did something a little different back then? There are far more detailed and amazing works coming out from artists since then. Their work is what it is and it was what it was. I'm not going to elevate Steranko up to the level he was in the 60's because there are a crapload of artists putting out better work than he ever did and they don't have 2 billion articles praising them. When I read your posts, I understand you enthusiasm and defense of these guys, but I can't help but feel like your tastes are a byproduct of the hype, and not necessarily an art for art comparison. JRJR is getting paid to draw convention sketches that pass as professional work. It's no mystery to me as to why he does it. I'm just not going to praise him for it. The same mentality is the problem with the family photo covers we see. It's less effort for the artists. They get the page back and it's an easy sell for them. It can command top dollar. They don't have buyers upset that the character's back is facing them or the page is filled with arrows & text. $$$ is the reason you see these covers. It has nothing to do with what readers want. It has nothing to do with how comic sales are affected. It's entirely to do with resale value of the original art piece. Until Marvel makes them stop, it will continue. df1
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Post by G on Jun 5, 2010 12:05:52 GMT -5
I just always thought EVENTUALLY fans would get tired of it and want something more on their covers. I mean, there is only so many times you can see stuff like this and yet it comes out month after month and every time I see a Previews or any advertisement for upcoming comics, I see more of the same. I never see any end in sight.
I've gotten to the point now that when I see something sporting an honest to god thought out cover giving insight to what is inside, well done and teasing you to buy, I consider buying it just to support those kind of covers. I mean Christ, I can get doing it on issue #1. It's the premier issue. That's the time you kinda expect it. But why is issue #19 still sporting the same kind of cover?
I can remember going to the local 7-11 on Wednesdays and spending 30 minutes just reading covers and making a decision because they all had something to say about what was inside. I might have had $2 and could buy maybe 5 books at the time. I literally had to spend long moments deciding between covers that were actively trying to tease me. Now the concept of buying a comic is which one has the prettiest cover and making you clueless as to what is inside. Bah! The entire process takes 2 minutes flat.
There just seems there was a period of downfall somewhere and then copycats erupted everywhere and now no one wants to go back to old school classic covers anymore because the fanboys are going "That looks sick" and they like collecting poster shots instead of comic covers.
Think of Valiant back in the day. The covers made you want to buy. The covers spoke to what you were going to get. What you could expect. The covers alone helped create the Valiant fury. Look what we are getting with Dark Horse and Valiant today? The same shit every other company is doing. Unlike before, there is nothing that separates them from the rest of the pack. They are now just part of the same herd. They aren't creating any separation from the crowd. Hardly anyone is. They all give us the same staredowns, fan outs and poses. Originality is dead. Even great concepts and great stories that DO actually exist today have no separation from their competition because they are doing the same covers just like everyone else. How is anyone to tell the difference? Rely totally on word of mouth and hype? I mean for crying out loud, the entire new comics section looks just like every cover you've seen before. What cover is going to make me think this one is different and better than the other cover doing the same thing right next to it? You CANNOT tell. Unless someone tells you what is good. You cannot tell the standouts from the sucks today just by looking at the cover.
That is why I think if a company with today's talent and technology went back and did things the way they were done before using the talent, resources and styles available today and put some thought and effort into covers, it could actually go over big. It's actually original today! Its original NOT to do fan out and pose covers and stare downs.
God, throw some big names on a project and let them know up front...."You can't do the old reliable type covers you've been doing the last 15 years. You're going to have to have covers be a selling concept and a teaser to buy, not just a poster of the character or group, you actually need for the cover to sell the product!" and deny every cover that doesn't meet that concept and make them think before they submit. And god, with the talent and technology out there today....dammit...its such a waste that companies don't take advantage of the talent pool and let them get away with convention special shots and shots every artist does in their personal sketch books. We as consumers have made it too damn easy for them! We aren't challenging the companies. Instead the companies dish it out and the collective crowd eats it up month after month after month. BBBBAAA-AAA-AAA-AAAA-AAAA-AAAAA! (Sheep)
If I was to ever run a comic company (Yes, I know I won't) but if I was. I would decline every cover that had no concept to what the story was inside. I would DEMAND originality. It's such a forgotten concept these days. Its so ORIGINAL today. Do what others are NOT. Set yourself apart from the crowd! Tease a customer into thinking "you know, this could possibly be good".
Comic Fans need to demand more from the comic companies! As long as the same fans keep buying it and not asking for anything new, the companies are going to keep dishing this kind of shit out.
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Post by defiant1 on Jun 5, 2010 16:15:59 GMT -5
Another factor with the posed image covers is that they can have these drawn ahead of time and it doesn't matter what book it gets put on. I think it's partially laziness.
df1
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Post by G on Jun 5, 2010 16:51:51 GMT -5
Another factor with the posed image covers is that they can have these drawn ahead of time and it doesn't matter what book it gets put on. I think it's partially laziness. df1 That's an EXCELLENT point. Covers today are so detached from the actual books, you don't have to draw anything even resembling what is inside. You can draw a cover now for a book that comes out 5 years from now. With today's covers, you just use whatever shot you have available and slap it on a book. Totally sucks if you ask me....
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Post by bigw1966 on Jun 5, 2010 18:41:29 GMT -5
Defient 1 I have no Idea why you felt the need to bring the Romita conversation here, but lets just clear this up. since you do not know me you should just give up trying to -guess at why I like something like someones art. I do not follow hype. I investigate. I learn. This probably has something to do with my exceptionally high IQ. I have also been an artist for 40 years and have decades (like you) of studying and understanding comics. Apparently unlike you however I know what is importent in a comic.
That being that it tells the story it wants to and the script and the art compliment each other. Just because you cannot see what I may like about someones art doesn't mean I am wrong to like them, it just means you lack the ability to appreciate what someone does for what it is.
It doesn't matter if the art is slick and polished and rendered with ten million hatch marks. Just like it doesn't matter if the art in your eyes looks simple and easy. Even with training I feel you would still miss the point of what makes some of these artists so good at what they do.
Mike Mignola for example is a superb penciller with a great sense of design. his stories have weight and are able to draw you fully into that angular world. Just like Duncan Fregredo who has a very scribbly style that fits the BPRD books so well that if you were a fan of the book you would be bummed if he left. I would never want to see him drawing Superheroes, I think that would be a poor fit.
You see my favorite Artists of the current era are the people who possess unique artistic ability that works perfectly in the medium it is intended for.
Bryan Hitch Carlos Pacheco Stuart Immomen Mark Wheatley Duncan Fregredo Mike Perkins Liam sharp Darick robinson Butch guice Mike Mignola jim Lee Fabio Moon and Gabrial Ba' Eduardo Risso Pia' Guierro Mike Allred Steve Epting Michael Adlard Ethan Van Sciver Ed Bein JRJR Greg Capullo
From my younger days it was
Mike Golden Frank Miller John Byrne Jerry Bingham George Perez Jim Starlin Neal Adams Mike Zeck Joe Rubenstien Curt Swan Murphy Anderson John and Sal Buscema
And during my introductory years John Romita BWS Walley Wood Frazetta Don Heck Steve Ditko
the best thing about every one of these guys is they all draw like themselves. They do not have a house style they do not all do perfect anatomy. what they all do extremely well though is tell good comic Book stories that pull you in.
Now I can agree with you that there are some artists today who blow away every single one of these guys in some capacity drawing wise.
People like
Travis Charest Mac Silvestri Michael Turner Scottie young
these are just a couple off the top of my head that I figure you would recognize.
these guys all draw great and I enjoy their work. That said, I would not spend a plug nickle on any comic book drawn by these guys for the purpose of wiping my ass with.
they cannot draw comics.
And that is the point. In fact that is also the point with all of these covers. they do nothing but sit there.
you mentioned it being about selling the final Art.
Whatever, If I had a choice between Superman Standing in front of a flag or Superman pummeling Doomsday, I am buying the Doomsday shot.
I don't pine for the day when Stan Lee used to fill the covers with expository balloons, I am not one to live or dwell in the past. Testerday is gone.
but I expect the art on a comic cover to want to make me spend the money just like the Cover of most of the novels I purchase.
As GW said this is just pure laziness.
Now this is just my opinion, and its free because nobody pays me for my opinion. but, I am a well versed person when it comes to all aspects of the comic Industry and comics in general. and while people may pay you for your opinion as you were so pointed at declaring back in the Romita thread, I can bet that the opinion they pay you for has nothing to do with comics.
so remember that you are one of the little people. just like me.
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Post by G on Jun 5, 2010 20:48:08 GMT -5
I think we are all the little people, but we also have an individual voice and opinions all our own and we feel passionately about them and I respect each person to have a right to voice their opinion on the subjects. But also, we shouldn't have to say who is the smartest or has the prettiest girl or who does the most important work or who has the best background for this. It's just an opinion and no one is right or wrong.
Mike, you obviously like JRJR more than the rest of us. That is perfectly fine.
DF1, you obviously dislike JRJR more than the rest of us and that is perfectly fine too.
I'm probably somewhere in between and feel perfectly fine feeling the way I do.
I don't think anyone is going to CHANGE anyone's opinion no matter how convincing. We all seem pretty firm on where we stand.
Lets not derail this topic on account of personal differences. The JRJR thread is in another area.
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Post by defiant1 on Jun 6, 2010 2:49:58 GMT -5
I've been a collector for 38years. I have in the neighborhood of 10,000 comics. My oldest is a Little Orphan Annie book from 1920. My oldest Superhero Comic is Whiz #9 from 1940. I own the first 350 issues of X-Men. I own two copies of X-Men #1. I have FF#1, Hulk #1-6 with duplicates, Amazing Fantasy #15, FF#48, 2 copies of Hulk #181, Tales To Astonish #1. My friend discovered the pay copy to Marvel comics #1. He sold pedigree comics like Wonder Woman #1. I've held the book. I've held a Detective Comics #1 and Amazing Man #5. I read price guides from cover to cover for 10 years. My friend was a Southeby's auction grader and an Overstreet advisor.
I have 10+ years in retail and I learned how to sell products. My manager once called me up to his office, He wanted to ask me how I was achieving 10% of the store's sales in my department by myself because no other store in the 60 store chain was able to accomplish that from the same department. He was particularly curious because I never had unnecessary overstock and the product I handled had the highest profit margin. The corporate guy who setup new stores used to come check out my shelves to get ideas on product placement because I had the item in the shelves before he'd even tackled the problem of where to put them. Marketing is EVERYTHING.
My dad worked in engineering for the #1 AM and FM radio stations in Atlanta. He hired me to help build radio station floats and setup local concerts. My dad built the winning float for Atlanta's 4th of July parade one year. I've seen promotion done right. I've seen effective advertising.
I was promoted to the quality department and given a raise exactly one month after being hired and I've outlasted about 15 Quality engineers and 4 quality managers. I train my new bosses on how the quality system works and why. External auditors get bored asking me questions because I answer their questions before they ask them.
Industry sales in comics are pathetic. Prices are going upwards to counterbalance the loss of customers. The industry is in a downhill spiral. Quality is one problem. Marketing is another.
I know comics. I know marketing. I know quality.
Fans can sit off to the side kissing people's ass and praising their work or you can put your foot down and tell them to wise up, put out better work, and quit milking the same overused ideas. I will complain about this stuff because with improvement the sales can increase, prices can come down and the product might be worth me and others spending money. I could dip my head in disappointment, walk away, and never be seen again looking at comics, but there are several hundred thousand collectors that have already done that. I realize I spend a lot of time talking to people who don't see a problem, but that's the only people buying comics anymore.
Last time I typed in "Comics Discussion Forum" on Google, my messageboard was the top spot. Not Marvel, not DC, not Newsarama or Broken Frontier... mine. A quick spot check shows it as 3rd behind only CBR. Out of 30.8 million results for that search term in the Google database, I think coming in second or third is pretty noteworthy. If I'm a nobody, then I've done a good job fooling the largest search engine.
df1
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