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Post by defiant1 on Feb 26, 2011 9:28:12 GMT -5
Walking dead is up to 90 issues. Its going strong. Its actually gaining readers. Kirkman won a Golden Globe for writing its TV version. Its getting ready to start coming out as a episodic video game series on major consoles. TV Series is the number one most anticipated fall show. You have to give it better credit. I mean the guy made a zombie book that has nothing much to do with Zombies, and managed to turn that entire genre on its ear causing all of the film and book guys to try and not only catch up but also to do it to equal quality. If your going to ask abut what would happen if quality books came out, you have to be open to all of them and what they have to offer that makes them worthy of being special. Its not ALL superhero stuff. Radicals 4-6 issue limit is their main flaw I think. They need to begin to come up with some cohesive soap opera stuff. But really their entire aim is to get their stuff optioned for film. Popularity and awards mean nothing to me. There are plenty of "popular" comics that are crap. The simple truth is that Walking Dead was a much hyped fan favorite with VERY unspectacular sales UNTIL the television series was announced. I believe I read that Walking Dead's 2nd TPB collection had one of the lowest orders of ANY image softcover up until this past year. It has been reprinted abundantly since then, but that is primarily because of the hype from the TV series. G is entirely right. This comic has been nothing but hype.. It was only getting sales in the twenty thousands per issue. It was a never a breakaway sales success until the television deal was announced. Some of the people out there praising the title are sheep following the flock. They'd like anything if you told them it was cool and popular. I've seen countless Valiant fans that fall into that category. Walking Dead reminds me of Quantum & Woody which was another excessively hyped comic. For the most part, they were both sales failures. Walking Dead got the TV deal riding on the coat strings of all the successful comic book movies. The hype was there right when the studios were looking for comic book properties. If not for that, it'd fall from grace and that hype would eventually go away. df1 |
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Post by bigw1966 on Feb 27, 2011 11:04:02 GMT -5
I always hate haveing to disagree with you when you just do not get it.
The majority of comics are lucky if they sell between 15 and 25,000 copies a month.
This is a B/W comic that is selling over 20,000 a month, long before the show was considered.
It has won awards numerous years. The creative team has stuck with the book and continue to grow the characters.
The reason the book may have been seen as marginal, is because it is black and white, and most people have some ingrained issue with reading a black and white comic.
This IS a quality comic. This SI what "G" is asking for. Sadly, you guys cannot get past Superheroes. Don't bother to retort, nothing you can say will change what I said.
You guys cannot see past Superheroes. You keep looking for that hunk of gold to come to the top, when you should come to grips with the fact that Superheroes are regurgitating all of their best Ideas, because they have already used up their best Ideas.
There are a lot of outstanding books on the market, and almost none of them involve capes.
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Post by defiant1 on Feb 27, 2011 11:26:38 GMT -5
I always hate haveing to disagree with you when you just do not get it. The majority of comics are lucky if they sell between 15 and 25,000 copies a month. This is a B/W comic that is selling over 20,000 a month, long before the show was considered. It has won awards numerous years. The creative team has stuck with the book and continue to grow the characters. The reason the book may have been seen as marginal, is because it is black and white, and most people have some ingrained issue with reading a black and white comic. This IS a quality comic. This SI what "G" is asking for. Sadly, you guys cannot get past Superheroes. Don't bother to retort, nothing you can say will change what I said. You guys cannot see past Superheroes. You keep looking for that hunk of gold to come to the top, when you should come to grips with the fact that Superheroes are regurgitating all of their best Ideas, because they have already used up their best Ideas. There are a lot of outstanding books on the market, and almost none of them involve capes. Virtually ALL modern comics are failures. Every generation of popular comics since I was a kid has published in excess of 100,000 copies. There are over 4 billion people in this world. Walking Dead was reaching less than 0.000525% of the population. That's factoring a 21,000 copy print run and 4 billion potential customers. Not only that, a good portion of those 21,000 copy sales are to speculators and people who won't even read it. Why do you think I can't see past superheroes? I've bought more non-superhero "newly published" comics over the past 15 years than I have superhero comics. Those include Stray Bullets, Strangehaven, Optic Nerve, Liberty Meadows, and quite a few things Millenium & Caliber comics produced. I jumped on anything Ivan Brunetti produces. None of that classifies as superhero. The comic is all hype and in the grand scheme it was poised to be a failure at that if not for Hollywood feeding off of comics for a cheap and easy inspiration. I happen to think it's mindless shit. I sorry that offends your sensibilities. It would eventually be as forgotten as Quantum & Woody if not for the television deal. I'm still convinced that it will be considered a joke in the next couple of decades as people wonder why the hell so many zombie stories were written in this particular decade. I guess what baffles me is that you use the same narrow standards that every other comic creator and publisher uses to justify the inadequacies their product. You base popularity on what everyone else is achieving rather than what the potential is. There are comic fans like me that aren't buying comics because they aren't seeing an adequate product. df1 |
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Post by G on Feb 27, 2011 11:56:38 GMT -5
I always hate haveing to disagree with you when you just do not get it. Mike, people can disagree with you and still get it. Please choose your words a bit more carefully because what I'm "getting" from this is a bit offensive. The reason the book may have been seen as marginal, is because it is black and white, and most people have some ingrained issue with reading a black and white comic. I never had a problem with Mad Magazine, The Savage Sword of Conan, The original Hulk Magazine, Armeggedeonquest and various other books that were in black n white. Yeah, I would prefer books be in color, but being in black n white doesn't make me automatically dislike a book. It can still overcome and be a great book. This IS a quality comic. This SI what "G" is asking for. No its not. I'm not asking for a story that has a lot of unbelievable moments in it and very subpar art. The one issue I have basically involves sitting in a house and thinking about opening a door for the entire issue. At the end, the door is opened. That wasn't much of an experience for me. And to top it off, the art sucked. No, this isn't what I have in mind at all. Sadly, you guys cannot get past Superheroes. Don't bother to retort, nothing you can say will change what I said. You guys cannot see past Superheroes. You keep looking for that hunk of gold to come to the top, when you should come to grips with the fact that Superheroes are regurgitating all of their best Ideas, because they have already used up their best Ideas. This is almost as offensive as the "not getting it" part. Feel free to come over anytime you want and I'll show you how many comics I have that are not super heroes. I've done said, I'll buy and read any comic from any era and any genre. That includes them all. And I think all comics and genre's have the potential to be great. Even superhero comics. The fact you're sick of them doesn't mean I have to be or I should suddenly turn my back on them for more "mature" comics like....eh-hem....Walking Dead. You should know I know a good comic from a bad comic. We may not agree with what is good or bad and that's fine. But it doesn't mean I have to collect like you do or vice versa. And just because one of us likes or dislikes something, doesn't mean we all have to follow suit. You like Walking Dead. That's fine. Me and defiant1 don't. That's fine too. We have our reasons. We don't need to be convinced why we should like it. There are a lot of outstanding books on the market, and almost none of them involve capes. Very true, but a couple of them still do a decent job here and there. Captain America has been very consistent. And although I didn't agree with the death of Johnny Storm, the Fantastic Four was doing well. The Shield was a good book. Thor had a nice run going for awhile, but now I'm not into it. Just like anything, they all have potential, but some read better than others. Some are of a better quality. Same thing with the non-superhero books. I've tried quite a few of them in the last year and just like any other subject, it's been hit or miss. If a comic combines great story with great art, it has the potential to be a Superior Quality Comic. But if one side is good and the other side is half assed, I'm not going to say it's what I'm talking about, because it isn't. |
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Post by cyberstrike on Mar 1, 2011 11:47:47 GMT -5
I read the first Walking Dead TPB and thought it was OK. It wasn't the greatest or the worse comic that I read. It's the kind of book that I can read every once and in a while (like DC/Vertigo The Sandman), but if I read it as an ongoing series I would either be sick and tied of it or just flat out hate the book by now.
If you eat steak every night you will eventually get tied of steak, that is how I feel about books like The Walking Dead and The Sandman. They're great every once and in while but something that I could easily get sick of before long.
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Post by G on Mar 1, 2011 18:15:31 GMT -5
I read the first Walking Dead TPB and thought it was OK. It wasn't the greatest or the worse comic that I read. It's the kind of book that I can read every once and in a while (like DC/Vertigo The Sandman), but if I read it as an ongoing series I would either be sick and tied of it or just flat out hate the book by now. If you eat steak every night you will eventually get tied of steak, that is how I feel about books like The Walking Dead and The Sandman. They're great every once and in while but something that I could easily get sick of before long. I think if a comic is good even in an ongoing situation.....I can keep going with it. But when it turns ordinary or bad, I can't hang with it much longer and will jump ship if it's more than a couple of bad issues. I'm not trying to say that Walking Dead is a BAD comic. I'm sure in it's own way, its an enjoyable comic that may be worth the time to sit down and read. The problem I have with it is considering it a GREAT comic. I thought when I read something like Watchmen, I personally thought that was a great comic (yes, I know others who hate it). But that was a great mix of story and art. A well done book in almost every aspect. This is just one example. And it's only brought up here as an example. I bring it up because no matter how you feel about Watchmen, good, bad or indifferent.....I'd have to put Walking Dead much below that. Hell, I thought Preacher was a much better comic than Walking Dead and once again combined great story with great art (And where exactly was the capes in that?). My point in the thread was not to discuss what we thought was/are great series or comics. One person is going to say they like this while the other says they like that. Okay fine. But I'm going to ask if a SUPERIOR product is put out there (and no, I'm not considering Walking Dead a Superior Comic, that's just me), are the fans of today going to keep it at Superior Support Levels for more than a few months before something else just knocks them from the pedestal (deserving or not) because that is how fickle comic readers are today. |
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Post by cyberstrike on Mar 3, 2011 18:37:04 GMT -5
One thing that actually turns me off is over-hype (and this doesn't apply just to comics but all media in general) I hate comics that are just constantly shoved down my throat, and that is not to say that it's a bad book or any thing I'm just sick of the over-hype.
I will say this about The Walking Dead wheather you love it, hate it or indifferent to it, Kirkman has done IMHO a great job in keeping the hype for the book where it's needed to be it gets the praise it deserves form those who enjoy it but it's not shoved down my throat to the point where it turns me against it.
Also Kirkman on The Walking Dead isn't making the book out to be more that it is. It's about a group of people surviving a zombie apocalypse and how they survive and that is what he delivers.
I think the internet hype for titles like Skull Kickers and Morning Glories were over done and burned themselves out because the books couldn't deliver on their hype.
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Post by G on Mar 3, 2011 23:56:47 GMT -5
Im not going to say that the Walking Dead has reached over-hype, but I think it's extremely close to it now. Especially with the tv show attached to it. It's sorta like watching Charlie Sheen all this week. On Monday and Tuesday I watched him on the Today show early in the morning drinking my morning cup of coffee and laughing my ass off at him. He was so off the chain, that whenever his name came up, I was like....did you see his ass on the Today Show this morning?  Dude had me rolling! On Tuesday night, I was actually wishing he would be on the Today show again the following morning. And guess what, he was. But this time they had taken his kids away and now he was trying to be serious. Everyone was now watching and now all the fun was gone. Understandably so, but the fact of the matter was, now everyone was looking for it and it was no longer something everyone had missed. Now with everyone watching and under the circumstance, he now had to be serious. In the case with comics nowadays, any time some topic about great comics come up, Walking Dead gets mentioned. Maybe there is something to the collective grip it has on our medium and that much I do admire. But it's getting to the point where it's getting just like Charlie Sheen. Everyone is aware of it now and it's reaching saturation. I'm not polarized with Walking Dead. I think I have gave it credit for it's mass appeal and how it has captured it's audience. I've even gone as far as to say that it's probably not a bad read if one wants to sit down and read all the comics. I personally just ain't ready to give it a term of greatness. Perhaps it's good. But as far as great, which again is just my own personal opinion, I'm not comfortable with that. And it's getting to a point where I cant have a modern comics subject without it being pounced on and put in front of my face. That's where I'm just not seeing the hype. And as far as terms of Superior Quality Comics, I'm looking for something beyond this. Because honestly if I have to put my level of greatness at the level of Walking Dead, than I don't think I'm setting my bar as high as I think it needs to be for inclusion of this discussion. |
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Post by defiant1 on Mar 4, 2011 18:07:56 GMT -5
One thing that actually turns me off is over-hype (and this doesn't apply just to comics but all media in general) I hate comics that are just constantly shoved down my throat, and that is not to say that it's a bad book or any thing I'm just sick of the over-hype. I will say this about The Walking Dead wheather you love it, hate it or indifferent to it, Kirkman has done IMHO a great job in keeping the hype for the book where it's needed to be it gets the praise it deserves form those who enjoy it but it's not shoved down my throat to the point where it turns me against it. Also Kirkman on The Walking Dead isn't making the book out to be more that it is. It's about a group of people surviving a zombie apocalypse and how they survive and that is what he delivers. I think the internet hype for titles like Skull Kickers and Morning Glories were over done and burned themselves out because the books couldn't deliver on their hype. I think Walking Dead is over-hyped by fans. I think anything excessively praised by fans in today's market is by default over-hyped. Even a good comic by today's standards is lacking the combination of good story, good art, and suspense. I haven't seen anything. Even when I was buying the early Strangers in Paradise issues and thinking... "this is well done", the story didn't have anywhere to go. It offered a vague curiosity at best. A year into the stories and it all looks the same. I think short Archie strips and Harvey comics had a better formula by offering gags. You don't expect those stories to go anywhere and you don't care because they are over in a few pages and there will be some kind of twist or mild laugh at the end of each one. Eventually the Walking Dead TV series will show it's last episode and the comics will be worthless like X-Files comics are. In 20 years after most people have forgotten about it, nostalgia will return. I think it's a safe bet that within 5 years, people will be selling their entire collections hoping to get a lot of money and the prices will plunge. df1 |
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Post by bigw1966 on Mar 13, 2011 10:54:47 GMT -5
you didn't give it shit dude.
that is why I continually bring the title up.
you cannot read a random issue or even a single issue like the free #1 and get what is going on.
go to your local library and check out the first 2 TPB's of it. Read them from beginning to end and then come back and talk about them. I will bet money that you have a 100% different view, and will likely seek out the rest.
that book took the extremely tired and overdone genre of Zombies and did something unique with it that had never been done. It studied the long term affects of living in that kind of world has on the survivors.
As for the Art, Tony Moore who was the original artist, was pretty young when that book started. 17-18 at most, so for age its pretty accomplished. He is currently the artist and designer on the new Venom book that Marvel is putting out. I prefer Charlie Adlards work on the book myself. The reason, is that as you get to know the characters of the series, you start to realize a quality in Adlards work that is not present in 90% of all published comics.
His characters actually emote. A single panel of his can convey so much emotion that you can know exactly what is going through the characters head.
Black and white art in general is hard to look at in comic form and fully judge how the final will look. We are so used to color that we cannot see past it.
Just look at my Steve Rogers piece in my thread. The inked version looks okay, but the colors totally bring it to life like a whole different picture.
The writing in WD is key. That is what got the show on TV. That is what has found the 20+ people I have loaned the series to who do not read comics to absorb all of the TPBs in a couple of days like a starving man would a plate of food. That is the reason the TV show found success when it could have been overlooked.
Crossgen I agree with. I loved their stuff. They wanted Superhero stuff, but they wanted to stand apart. So they fully embraced the Sci-fi concept of it and createda lot of wonderful books that existed in multiple universes and time periods yet still remained conected to each other.
Brilliant.
and now Marvel is about to fuck all that up.
Now while you may look at or even talk about other genres here, you primarily talk about superheroes. when you talk about wanting something exiting to happen in comics, you are talking about superheros.
That is what you grew up on and that is what continues to bring you back to comics.
I have mentioned a number of different titles that have had a large impact on the industry and what types of books are coming out. Hell they have had an impact on the approach taken on some superhero titles.
The books that have done this in the most noticeable ways, are the following,
"Y" the Last Man
Deus Ex Machina
100 Bullets
Criminal
Fables
Runaways
Authority
Ultimate Avengers/ the Ultimates (yeah I know but it did change a lot of things in mainstream books)
Hellboy/BPRD
as you may notice, only two of these are Superhero books. The rest are all science fiction or Crime/Conspiracy
Sci/Fi - Ex Machina "Y" the last man, Runaways Authority and The Ultimates
Crime - 100 Bullets, Criminal
conspiracy - 100 bullets, Runaways
One showed a far reaching criminal conspiracy that secretly controlled everything.
the other took kids who discover that their parents are actually very powerful supercriminals and had them secretly trying to stop them.
Fantasy - All of them, but Fables and Hellboy/BPRD
Fables took recognisable characters and turned their world and their existance on its ear to great success and have since had an effect on many other genres.
Hellboy/BPRD takes real world folklore, from all different culturers and ties them into the greater story of the coming of the Antichrist/Beast of the apocalypse (Hellboy) and gave the guy the personality of a blue collar neighbohood guy.
These books have directly influenced the impact of fantasy and horror titles hitting the racks for the last 10 years.
The superhero titles that I mentioned all had a major impact on the approach to existing characters that is now felt all through the comics market. similar to how the Grim and gritty explosion happened.
all of these titles and many more are well worth your time.
Locke and Key is another title that is just exploding with great ideas in every single issue.
I could go on and on, but I think you should read the books first.
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Dude had me rolling! 
