|
Post by G on Aug 4, 2009 12:11:35 GMT -5
The very title of this thread shows what a benchmark Valiant was in the history of comics. That it was, but dammit, its been 17 years! Before that, there was great moments happening in comics a lot more often. It's like it just stopped!
|
|
|
Post by starbrand on Aug 4, 2009 12:24:28 GMT -5
I know what you're saying, bro. I think creator owned stuff limits universe building, and that's one reason for how things have been going. Also, comic creators having more options than working for the big two has depleted the talent pool for the big two.
|
|
|
Post by leonmallett on Aug 4, 2009 13:11:39 GMT -5
The shift in focus toward the event cycle.
We had events in the past, but now we are in the age of the meta-event at DC and Marvel - a situation where one event feeds the next and events no longer service the individual titles but rather are served by them, ie priority is for the (ever more delayed) events at the cost of good ongoing storytelling. It is a turnaround from the original days when events were a side bonus: they are now the primary focus.
|
|
|
Post by G on Aug 4, 2009 14:05:34 GMT -5
Mega-crossovers are not what I really have in mind although it seems better when a group of comics under 1 publisher seem to be interacting in a continual way and yet, they aren't even calling it a crossover and in reality, it is. That to me is a great crossover. It doesn't have to be a mega crossover event (which seem more these days like sales marketing ploys). It can be a single title as long as it just runs away with greatness. I think X-Men had it for a time. I just think it needs to be something that 15 years from now people will be celebrating them the way we celebrate some comics now. I mean people celebrate great titles and runs. People look back and say...."yeah man, that was great" in almost unison when those titles are mentioend. There was something about it that set it apart from the usual monthly drivel coming and going each month. They were the must have comics. I remember when Valiant hit...they were must haves! EVERYBODY wanted them! I haven't seen that since. Sometimes it gets close, I just don't see the same passion for those comics. Is anybody going to make internet sites about great comics from the last 15 years and huddle together like a great clique and wear their loyalty of love for those comics like a badge and say "Those were GREAT"? This is where I get a bit upset with Valiant or at least the mindset since Valiant. Maybe its jealousy, I don't know. I LOVE what Valiant did. I appreciate it's greatness. It's exactly what Im talking about in this thread, something great. But it just seems to me like since they happened, with all the great talent out there, someone should have been able to come up with something that gets people that excited again. I just feel its LONG overdue. Instead it just seems like the comics world is content to let all the great stuff happen in the past and settle for today's stuff as "Oh well, at least it's comics". I always feel like today's fans don't demand better. And creators of the past always continually strived to give us better so we never had to ask. But that's just my personal rant and I need to get over it.
|
|
|
Post by defiant1 on Aug 4, 2009 18:23:49 GMT -5
The very title of this thread shows what a benchmark Valiant was in the history of comics. This is a biased crowd. Go to a board discussing Image and they'd disagree. Defiant1
|
|
|
Post by G on Aug 4, 2009 21:11:51 GMT -5
The very title of this thread shows what a benchmark Valiant was in the history of comics. This is a biased crowd. Go to a board discussing Image and they'd disagree. Yeah, you can't mess with Youngblood.
|
|
|
Post by starbrand on Aug 4, 2009 21:52:28 GMT -5
The very title of this thread shows what a benchmark Valiant was in the history of comics. This is a biased crowd. Go to a board discussing Image and they'd disagree. Defiant1 You're right, that was my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by leonmallett on Aug 5, 2009 2:49:09 GMT -5
Mega-crossovers are not what I really have in mind although it seems better when a group of comics under 1 publisher seem to be interacting in a continual way and yet, they aren't even calling it a crossover and in reality, it is. That to me is a great crossover. It doesn't have to be a mega crossover event (which seem more these days like sales marketing ploys). It can be a single title as long as it just runs away with greatness. I think X-Men had it for a time. I just think it needs to be something that 15 years from now people will be celebrating them the way we celebrate some comics now. I mean people celebrate great titles and runs. People look back and say...."yeah man, that was great" in almost unison when those titles are mentioend. There was something about it that set it apart from the usual monthly drivel coming and going each month. They were the must have comics. I remember when Valiant hit...they were must haves! EVERYBODY wanted them! I haven't seen that since. Sometimes it gets close, I just don't see the same passion for those comics. Is anybody going to make internet sites about great comics from the last 15 years and huddle together like a great clique and wear their loyalty of love for those comics like a badge and say "Those were GREAT"? This is where I get a bit upset with Valiant or at least the mindset since Valiant. Maybe its jealousy, I don't know. I LOVE what Valiant did. I appreciate it's greatness. It's exactly what Im talking about in this thread, something great. But it just seems to me like since they happened, with all the great talent out there, someone should have been able to come up with something that gets people that excited again. I just feel its LONG overdue. Instead it just seems like the comics world is content to let all the great stuff happen in the past and settle for today's stuff as "Oh well, at least it's comics". I always feel like today's fans don't demand better. And creators of the past always continually strived to give us better so we never had to ask. But that's just my personal rant and I need to get over it. I don't regard the current event cycle as good - just significant. Significant can be good or bad, which is why I mentioned it. Re: VALIANT - I love a lot of the books. I am only discovering them in recent years as I didn't 'get' the ethos at the time. That said to suggest that they were the greatest comic books ever, or indeed the only high watermark, is to over-egg things in my view. There are many other significant occasions in comic book publishing since then, a few examples: - the success of independent books such as Bone, Ninja High School, Savage Dragon (recently hit issue 150 - by the same writer/artist), Spawn (approaching a 200th issue - how can that not be deemed significant), and so many more. Some started before VALIANT, but the continued success occured afterwards. - the growth of the collected edition market has changed how storytelling is approached, and a new burgeoning market seems to have grown up around hardcovers. - Crossgen eschewing superheroics for fantasy and sci-fi (yes it failed, but so did VALIANT, DEFIANT and Broadway). - Image trying brave new books; they are a company who have transformed themselves massively from their early days. - new trends and genres: superhero noir, anyone? Looking at it, I feel it is hard for anyone with a vested interest to look objectively at what VALIANT did and achieved. To put the 50 Shooter-era issues on a pedastal for example overlooks the arguable improvement that a book like Shadowman saw without his guidance. To look at the numbers of books printed is to look at a massively distorted marketplace at the time - which may have been mistaken for passion; were there a million-plus 'passionate' consumers of Turok #1? To listen to or read the words of Jim Shooter seems to be about how he did pretty much everything, having to drag along others in his wake - I'd love to hear the Bob Layton, BWS or even <shudder> Massasrky views (obviously we won't now hear the latter, and it may be further from truth than the Shooter version if we had, but a sense of balance is always nice).
|
|
|
Post by G on Aug 5, 2009 9:41:09 GMT -5
I don't regard the current event cycle as good - just significant. Significant can be good or bad, which is why I mentioned it. Re: VALIANT - I love a lot of the books. I am only discovering them in recent years as I didn't 'get' the ethos at the time. That said to suggest that they were the greatest comic books ever, or indeed the only high watermark, is to over-egg things in my view. There are many other significant occasions in comic book publishing since then, a few examples: - the success of independent books such as Bone, Ninja High School, Savage Dragon (recently hit issue 150 - by the same writer/artist), Spawn (approaching a 200th issue - how can that not be deemed significant), and so many more. Some started before VALIANT, but the continued success occured afterwards. - the growth of the collected edition market has changed how storytelling is approached, and a new burgeoning market seems to have grown up around hardcovers. - Crossgen eschewing superheroics for fantasy and sci-fi (yes it failed, but so did VALIANT, DEFIANT and Broadway). - Image trying brave new books; they are a company who have transformed themselves massively from their early days. - new trends and genres: superhero noir, anyone? Looking at it, I feel it is hard for anyone with a vested interest to look objectively at what VALIANT did and achieved. To put the 50 Shooter-era issues on a pedastal for example overlooks the arguable improvement that a book like Shadowman saw without his guidance. To look at the numbers of books printed is to look at a massively distorted marketplace at the time - which may have been mistaken for passion; were there a million-plus 'passionate' consumers of Turok #1? To listen to or read the words of Jim Shooter seems to be about how he did pretty much everything, having to drag along others in his wake - I'd love to hear the Bob Layton, BWS or even <shudder> Massasrky views (obviously we won't now hear the latter, and it may be further from truth than the Shooter version if we had, but a sense of balance is always nice). Actually, the point of this thread I'm trying to make is not to put Valiant on a pedestal. It's trying to say what has been "game-changing or truly great" like Valiant was since Valiant hit it big? What else has been a really great period of comics since Valiant? And significant is not the point either. Im not wasting away long runs of comics and saying they are not significant. Im just saying, are they so great that most everyone wanted them? In most cases, I don't think so. It's great Savage Dragon and Spawn hit high issue marks, but I'd dare call any of either of the series great, nor was a lot of other comic titles that achieved such high numbers of issues. Entertaining maybe, decent following, yes....but not game changing or mass hysteria driving. I will say collected books are game changing as they have become almost a new way of collecting comics or at least reading comics. So I'd give that a legitimate format change. But thats where I'd leave it. In the format changing category. I think Crossgen could have been a contender and I certainly wish they were one. One thing I like about them is they put a lot of quality into their work. They were more than halfway to what Im talking about. I just don't think they quite made it to mass hysteria. Too bad they folded. But now 5-6 years since their demise I don't find people acting like they were as exciting and earth shattering as Valiant was. Image has evolved and survived and I respect them a hell of a lot more than I used to. They may have some titles that people will put up there, but I'm not sure which ones would qualify or does it merit what I'm talking about. I think the 50 or so Shooter issues ARE the pedestal Im talking about. Im not putting it on a pedestal, but I cannot deny everyone else did. And that's what Im talking about. It can't be denied that it was a great period of comics. But it's not Shooter Im trying to say needs to be followed. Its me saying that was a period of comics that were put together that had massive impact on people and created an almost cult following. I don't care who does it now. Brubaker, Lee, Ennis, whoever. Marvel, DC, or some other company. I'm just saying it hasn't been done in a long, long time. And I really think we need another moment like that in comics where a Ring Leader takes control of either one title or a group of books and makes them the most wanted, talked about, admired and desired comics in the game.
|
|
|
Post by leonmallett on Aug 5, 2009 10:05:04 GMT -5
Actually, the point of this thread I'm trying to make is not to put Valiant on a pedestal. It's trying to say what has been "game-changing or truly great" like Valiant was since Valiant hit it big? What else has been a really great period of comics since Valiant? And significant is not the point either. Im not wasting away long runs of comics and saying they are not significant. Im just saying, are they so great that most everyone wanted them? In most cases, I don't think so. It's great Savage Dragon and Spawn hit high issue marks, but I'd dare call any of either of the series great, nor was a lot of other comic titles that achieved such high numbers of issues. Entertaining maybe, decent following, yes....but not game changing or mass hysteria driving. I will say collected books are game changing as they have become almost a new way of collecting comics or at least reading comics. So I'd give that a legitimate format change. But thats where I'd leave it. In the format changing category. I think Crossgen could have been a contender and I certainly wish they were one. One thing I like about them is they put a lot of quality into their work. They were more than halfway to what Im talking about. I just don't think they quite made it to mass hysteria. Too bad they folded. But now 5-6 years since their demise I don't find people acting like they were as exciting and earth shattering as Valiant was. Image has evolved and survived and I respect them a hell of a lot more than I used to. They may have some titles that people will put up there, but I'm not sure which ones would qualify or does it merit what I'm talking about. I think the 50 or so Shooter issues ARE the pedestal Im talking about. Im not putting it on a pedestal, but I cannot deny everyone else did. And that's what Im talking about. It can't be denied that it was a great period of comics. But it's not Shooter Im trying to say needs to be followed. Its me saying that was a period of comics that were put together that had massive impact on people and created an almost cult following. I don't care who does it now. Brubaker, Lee, Ennis, whoever. Marvel, DC, or some other company. I'm just saying it hasn't been done in a long, long time. And I really think we need another moment like that in comics where a Ring Leader takes control of either one title or a group of books and makes them the most wanted, talked about, admired and desired comics in the game. The point is not everyone did place those 50 issues on a pedestal. When people own long-boxes of Turok 1 or whatever (and they do, as we know), and prices for Harbinger #1 have dropped from their massive highs, then that is not about everyone, instead it is about a heavily distorted market which VALIANT was the pinnacle of. I think you are trying to be broad and specific about what answers you want at the same time, which just cannot work. You say you don't want to put VALIANT on a pedestal but then reject massive shifts that have taken place since then. VALIANT was not universally great (although there were some great books, and my favourite got betetr in the absence of Shooter arguably), and it eventually went downhill. I could write reams on why Jim Shooter is a good writer but not a great writer, but that is for another thread. Comc book quality is wholly subjective. A book like Savage Dragon makes money. It has a loyal following and has run 150 consecutive issues. How does that not mark it out? I am not asking for agreement on quality, but it is significant. Now if your discussion is purely about quality, well there can never be consensus since quality is indefinable. One mans treasure is anothers trash and all that. But you asked for significance and there has been much of significance since VALIANT launched, in fact the thread title asks for significance, and there has also been great quality. There just hasn't been another speculator boom. The trouble is we will never have a true measure of VALIANT's popularity since a lot of it was fuelled by an unrealistic market as we can see from when the speculator bubble popped. Greatness since VALIANT in terms of (subjective) quality? It is there, it may just be spread around more. We may see it concentrated again, one day. You mention mass hysteria. I don't think we can neccessarily take it as read that the hysteria was always for the comic books - arguably it was for the perceived value of those books, which is a whole other concern.
|
|