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Post by G on Aug 5, 2009 10:33:03 GMT -5
There is a limit to how many characters can be put in a title when making a thread, so when writing the title I chose the word significant which looking back is probably the wrong word. I intended for my posts which were not limited to 1 sentence to more clearly convey what I'm talking about which is a lot more to it than just "significant". We are placing too much emphasis on "significant", "Valiant" and "Shooter" here. I chose Valiant as the point where it seemed like things ended. Not the focus, but the ending point.
I can list 400 titles since Valiant that are significant, but are any what Im referring to? If you want me to say they are significant, I will. I'm not knocking down that they each have their own significance or something to offer a comic fan, but its not what I'm talking about.
This is not a pro/anti Valiant/Shooter thread. Maybe Im just not being clear and I can accept that.
My bad...
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Post by leonmallett on Aug 5, 2009 14:10:49 GMT -5
Not trying to cause offence, mate. Just pointing out the difference between significance and quality. And just stating that there has been both since VALIANT's demise, in my view. Very occasionally both occur together. And I accept that not everyone will agree with me.
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Post by G on Aug 5, 2009 15:03:47 GMT -5
Not trying to cause offence, mate. I'd much rather have this than nothing. Good to see you Leon! Just pointing out the difference between significance and quality. And just stating that there has been both since VALIANT's demise, in my view. Very occasionally both occur together. All this may be true, but I don't think its the same thing Im talking about.
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Post by defiant1 on Aug 6, 2009 23:10:49 GMT -5
Actually, the point of this thread I'm trying to make is not to put Valiant on a pedestal. It's trying to say what has been "game-changing or truly great" like Valiant was since Valiant hit it big? What else has been a really great period of comics since Valiant? And significant is not the point either. Im not wasting away long runs of comics and saying they are not significant. Im just saying, are they so great that most everyone wanted them? In most cases, I don't think so. It's great Savage Dragon and Spawn hit high issue marks, but I'd dare call any of either of the series great, nor was a lot of other comic titles that achieved such high numbers of issues. Entertaining maybe, decent following, yes....but not game changing or mass hysteria driving. I will say collected books are game changing as they have become almost a new way of collecting comics or at least reading comics. So I'd give that a legitimate format change. But thats where I'd leave it. In the format changing category. I think Crossgen could have been a contender and I certainly wish they were one. One thing I like about them is they put a lot of quality into their work. They were more than halfway to what Im talking about. I just don't think they quite made it to mass hysteria. Too bad they folded. But now 5-6 years since their demise I don't find people acting like they were as exciting and earth shattering as Valiant was. Image has evolved and survived and I respect them a hell of a lot more than I used to. They may have some titles that people will put up there, but I'm not sure which ones would qualify or does it merit what I'm talking about. I think the 50 or so Shooter issues ARE the pedestal Im talking about. Im not putting it on a pedestal, but I cannot deny everyone else did. And that's what Im talking about. It can't be denied that it was a great period of comics. But it's not Shooter Im trying to say needs to be followed. Its me saying that was a period of comics that were put together that had massive impact on people and created an almost cult following. I don't care who does it now. Brubaker, Lee, Ennis, whoever. Marvel, DC, or some other company. I'm just saying it hasn't been done in a long, long time. And I really think we need another moment like that in comics where a Ring Leader takes control of either one title or a group of books and makes them the most wanted, talked about, admired and desired comics in the game. The point is not everyone did place those 50 issues on a pedestal. When people own long-boxes of Turok 1 or whatever (and they do, as we know), and prices for Harbinger #1 have dropped from their massive highs, then that is not about everyone, instead it is about a heavily distorted market which VALIANT was the pinnacle of. I think you are trying to be broad and specific about what answers you want at the same time, which just cannot work. You say you don't want to put VALIANT on a pedestal but then reject massive shifts that have taken place since then. VALIANT was not universally great (although there were some great books, and my favourite got betetr in the absence of Shooter arguably), and it eventually went downhill. I could write reams on why Jim Shooter is a good writer but not a great writer, but that is for another thread. Comc book quality is wholly subjective. A book like Savage Dragon makes money. It has a loyal following and has run 150 consecutive issues. How does that not mark it out? I am not asking for agreement on quality, but it is significant. Now if your discussion is purely about quality, well there can never be consensus since quality is indefinable. One mans treasure is anothers trash and all that. But you asked for significance and there has been much of significance since VALIANT launched, in fact the thread title asks for significance, and there has also been great quality. There just hasn't been another speculator boom. The trouble is we will never have a true measure of VALIANT's popularity since a lot of it was fuelled by an unrealistic market as we can see from when the speculator bubble popped. Greatness since VALIANT in terms of (subjective) quality? It is there, it may just be spread around more. We may see it concentrated again, one day. You mention mass hysteria. I don't think we can neccessarily take it as read that the hysteria was always for the comic books - arguably it was for the perceived value of those books, which is a whole other concern. The praise regarding Valiant has nothing to do with a million copies of Turok selling. I think people equate the speculator boom with what made Valiant popular. Valiant was the biggest case of bait and switch ever pulled on the comics consumer. Customers were flocking to buy low print run highly cohesive and high quality comics to read. Right when they did, Jim Shooter was terminated. The produced abundant poor quality, in-cohesive garbage. Quality can be defined. It can be defined as meeting or exceeding the customers expectations. Prior to Jim Shooter getting canned, his books were exceeding the customer expectations. Most series start with a huge order based upon consumer interest and feedback. It's pretty standard business for a #1 to sell more than a #2 and a #2 to sell for more than a #3. It is highly unusual for a #13 to sell volumes 10 times that of a #9. People don't speculate on series that are dropping in sales unless there are other elements sparking that interest. The speculator boom was a direct byproduct of the baseball strike and the card market tanking. The sports card shop had to find a product that would sell and keep their doors open. Valiant was simply the hot rookie company that wqas performing to the level the fans wanted to see. Unlike Image creators that were riding off of their fame of working on Marvel characters, Valiant built up from the ground level to achieve what they did. They had no jump start from Malibu. There are clear indicators that Valiant earned and shaped their own place in history. Valiant climbed Mt Everest to get where they were, Image creators were airlifted to the top by Marvel and bungee jumped back and forth. To me there is no comparison. Whenever I see people start a conversation about Valiant and mention Turok #1 in the same sentence, it tells me they really don't have a clue about what made Valiant popular. By the time Turok #1 came out, the quality was already gone. It was pure garbage from that point forward. Yeah, they sold a lot of books, because most fans don't realize one writer had built it all from the ground up. Defiant1
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Post by G on Aug 8, 2009 16:48:53 GMT -5
As you can see in this thread I made roughly 20 months ago, I was feeling the same way then. I was wondering why nothing great had happened since Valiant and was it time to let Valiant go? Its pretty easy to see I was doubting Valiant could reclaim what it once had. Now here we are all these months later and it's Dark Horse using Shooter and a couple Valiant veterans making me optimistic about the future. However since I 1st made this thread, I still don't think up til now anything great has happened and in my opinion at least, the streak continues. gowaltrip.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=valiant&action=display&thread=463
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