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Post by defiant1 on Dec 1, 2009 19:36:15 GMT -5
Also I love how events in one series affects another or has implications later elsewhere. That kind of cohesiveness is what I find lacking these days. Now this is what I don't understand. Those of you who do not read new comics or at least read up on them should not be saying this. Since Gowaltrip is a Marvel fan I will use them. So there was a Civil War that led to a Secret Invasion that left them with a Dark Reign to where they are going to have a Siege. It's amazing how all these storylines are running together and are tied into many titles. It's not hard to find a connecting story with implications if you just read the books. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The part where Erik says "I blame society" I don't believe should be taken seriously nor was it meant to be. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I know you don't like the standard comic poses that Image uses on their covers Gowaltrip. Unfortunately many comic companies use them. Even Marvel and DC use them all the time. In fact, I think it's hard not to find covers like this nowadays. These massive crossovers all run together and everything is intended to shock you. There is no natural flow or evolution. I don't think those are what me and G liked about Marvel when we mention cohesiveness. I'm not looking for Black Goliath to be killed or any of the characters I liked. I was sickened when I found out Karen Page was killed in Daredevil. Instead of using her, they exploited her. The Skrull invasion of Earth would be excellent as a subplot that taunted you in the background. Plastering it on the cover of every issue just tells me they intend to disrupt something I want to be left alone. Reboots and shock twists every month is an excuse for the writer to avoid character development and it shows they have no respect for the continuity that was written before. The clone saga is when I quit buying Marvel. I've read Marvel Comics since then, but I don't buy them as a general rule. I picked up a random issue of Captain America a few years ago at a book store and read it. It had Nomad dying. Why do I want to see that? Nomad had a lot of potential if they'd have given him a writer who cared. Last week I scanned the cover of the book "Origins" written by Stan Lee. I saw the cover and it made me think of Gowaltrip. All the Marvel characters are fanned out in a pose. I don't hate covers with heroes posing. I hate the fact you can't find many comics where they aren't posing. After awhile it looks stupid. Are we buying photo albums or stories. Why don't artists draw snapshots of what is going on inside? Isn't it relevant? I would hope it is. Don't they want new readers to be curious? I don't understand their mindset. I thought it funny one day when I read that Jim Shooter would draw covers and write a story based on the cover he'd drawn. It was funny to me because I plotted out some stories for a character I created by drawing covers. They paced the storyline I wanted to develop and to me it made plotting out things easier. I'd like to see that done more. I'd like to see covers so interesting that they made me want to buy the books. Defiant1
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Post by azbatx on Dec 1, 2009 22:51:16 GMT -5
How can you even say that this is not the cohesiveness you want? When everything is flowing together and the story lines all back each other up is sure sounds like a cohesive universe. I don't see how you can say there is no character development. Look at Norman Osbourne now. They have developed him and continue to do so. The progression of The Thunderbolts into The Dark Avengers is a development. Everything since Civil War to current is one big development.
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Post by G on Dec 2, 2009 0:07:34 GMT -5
I think we could go round in circles on this matter and both sides would feel each is right. I think there are generation gaps in collecting comics. I also feel a lot of time that people tend to collect and love the era that got them started. Those like me who got started in the 1970's, tend to look back on that time with great fondness and remember the way things "used to be".
Those who started out collecting in the booming 90's tend to hold onto the feeling that a lot of comics from those days up to now are better than they ever have been. To them the art is far superior and the stories are right up their alley. You can't fault anyone for really feeling the way they do about the way they think comics ought to be.
I think Defiant1 sorta remembers the things I remember and loved about comics and he seems to relate to that too. We seem to agree on the fact that things aren't the way we remember and to us, there was a lot better about the old days. I personally will always believe that comics were a better product back then. Yeah, maybe the artists of today can do it better. Not sure I really agree with that. But what I find about today's comics that bother me is I see the talent is there to do some comics the way I remember them and make them better than they ever have been done and instead, we seem to me to be making inferior products. The character and story development I see today may be alive and well, I just don't think its as good as it was 20-30 years ago.
Conversely, me and Defiant1 are considered "old school" and don't understand the hype of today's comics. I've seen others come on here and say things that agree with Azbatx's side many times too. He isn't alone in the way he feels. Comics have moved on from my age. And while I keep dreaming and wishing someone would return comics to some of the glory that I remember, comics have the attitude the Larson had in his response to Defiant1. There are plenty of people who like it, so be that way if you will, that's the way it is so deal with it.
I just wish each side seen comic development that would make each side appreciate the other. Comics could easily be made great the way I and others want. And I think one day someone will eventually try it again. I just hope it aint too late by time that day comes around. As for the rest of you, if you're still enjoying comics the way they are take note that your side is the way it is so therefore your way is the way and really it's us old school types that have to live with it. You guys are in the driver's seat.
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Post by defiant1 on Dec 2, 2009 3:35:06 GMT -5
How can you even say that this is not the cohesiveness you want? When everything is flowing together and the story lines all back each other up is sure sounds like a cohesive universe. I don't see how you can say there is no character development. Look at Norman Osbourne now. They have developed him and continue to do so. The progression of The Thunderbolts into The Dark Avengers is a development. Everything since Civil War to current is one big development. There a difference between a meal with various side dishes laid out on the table vs. throwing it all in the blender. I brought up the cohesiveness issue in relation to Image. Marvel is just bad plotting. The storylines don't interest me. It's reported that one of the reasons Ditko quit Marvel is because Ditko didn't like the idea of the Green Goblin being Norman Osborn. I don't care anything about Norman Osborn or anything they've done with him. Again, the clone saga is where I quit buying Marvel. The whole concept of Captain America dying is bullshit to me. I have no interest in reading stories about losers. It's just a basic concept that makes me drop a title quickly. Once Marvel puts all their focus on losers and running characters through the mud, I'll find other things to read. df1
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Post by defiant1 on Dec 2, 2009 4:17:14 GMT -5
I think we could go round in circles on this matter and both sides would feel each is right. I think there are generation gaps in collecting comics. I also feel a lot of time that people tend to collect and love the era that got them started. Those like me who got started in the 1970's, tend to look back on that time with great fondness and remember the way things "used to be". Those who started out collecting in the booming 90's tend to hold onto the feeling that a lot of comics from those days up to now are better than they ever have been. To them the art is far superior and the stories are right up their alley. You can't fault anyone for really feeling the way they do about the way they think comics ought to be. I think Defiant1 sorta remembers the things I remember and loved about comics and he seems to relate to that too. We seem to agree on the fact that things aren't the way we remember and to us, there was a lot better about the old days. I personally will always believe that comics were a better product back then. Yeah, maybe the artists of today can do it better. Not sure I really agree with that. But what I find about today's comics that bother me is I see the talent is there to do some comics the way I remember them and make them better than they ever have been done and instead, we seem to me to be making inferior products. The character and story development I see today may be alive and well, I just don't think its as good as it was 20-30 years ago. Conversely, me and Defiant1 are considered "old school" and don't understand the hype of today's comics. I've seen others come on here and say things that agree with Azbatx's side many times too. He isn't alone in the way he feels. Comics have moved on from my age. And while I keep dreaming and wishing someone would return comics to some of the glory that I remember, comics have the attitude the Larson had in his response to Defiant1. There are plenty of people who like it, so be that way if you will, that's the way it is so deal with it. I just wish each side seen comic development that would make each side appreciate the other. Comics could easily be made great the way I and others want. And I think one day someone will eventually try it again. I just hope it aint too late by time that day comes around. As for the rest of you, if you're still enjoying comics the way they are take note that your side is the way it is so therefore your way is the way and really it's us old school types that have to live with it. You guys are in the driver's seat. It really has nothing to do with old school vs new school. It has to do with incorporating elements that adhere to certain quality standards... or not. Valiant did it right alongside Image in 1991. EC Comics had a completely different formula 20 years before I started collecting. I like both of those. Rob Liefeld is not a good artist. Scott Campbell who can attract my attention, is not a great artist. Everything he draws look like it was done with a French Curve. I don't even like McFarlane's art done with eyes out of proportion and contortions not physically possible. Even Jim Lee is not a great artist. I don't even think the art has to be great to tell a good story. It just needs to not be distractingly bad. There was some Captain America books in the 70's with distractingly bad art. A lack of character development is a problem if it happens in 1970 or 2020. Stan Lee's stuff from the 60's is simplistic as hell. At least you knew the Human Torch had a fireproof room and they had these mysterious unstable molecules that kept them in clothes. A guess a problem I have with Image is that it leans towards Superhero Fantasy (big muscles and a costume) vs. Superhero Science-Fiction. I hate Fantasy based concepts. That's why I don't get excited over Star Wars. I don't read comics to drift my mind away in la la land wishing I had spandex and big muscles. There were comics I didn't like in 1970. If youngblood had come out in 1970, I was smart enough to know a bow needs a string. People don't have hooves for feet, and that 40 words on a page is more to read than 5. Get over basic obstacles like that I might like an image comic. df1
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Post by G on Dec 2, 2009 7:23:23 GMT -5
I only refer to it as new school, old school because it seems as though our way of thinking on comics is outdated. But I do agree with you on the fact that if the same thing was happening in the 1970s and 80s, it would have had the same impact on me.
Some of the funnest comics I have ever read are Lee/Kirby Fantastic Fours (#1 - #102). Those 102 issues are like 1 long unending story. It's like each issue is the next week in their lives. You can see Reed go from being boyfriend/girlfriend with Sue, to getting engaged, married, having a baby and all kinds of problems with him working to correct things including trying to cure the Thing and her fighting with him to slow down and take a break. And it even continue well after that. When Bryne had the run, Sue got pregnant again and miscarried. Their problems were everyday issues. Now I pick up a Fantastic Four and it's like I don't know them anymore.
Marvel does suck today, although I did enjoy a few of their series, most of it I just can't get with anymore. The problem isn't just Image. I think Image has actually improved since the 90s an awful lot. However, when they get back to the original artists and characters, I'm always seeing the same things and it's like they take a step backwards. I am over their static posing covers. They was doing that in 1993. When I wade through their boxes I can't hardly tell what to expect in any given single issue. There is no tease on the cover. It's just another poster shot. The thing is, the poster shot is like simple for them to do. The concept of a cover that gives you a glimpse of what to expect inside the comic takes so much more of a thought process. But ask any of these artists to draw their character coming at you or staring at you, and they'll whip one up in 5 minutes or less over and over. It doesn't challenge them. I can go for these kind of covers periodically. But when its every issue. I just have no excitement in owning the collection. You don't flip through the covers and go "Oh, that was the issue when such and such did....that". You really have no idea what is inside.
I would like to see Image evolve from this regarding their original characters. I would love to see original Image characters on the cover providing a glimpse to what's inside. But as long as this formula of drawing stare down or pose covers keeps working for them, they'll just stay with the status quo.
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Post by defiant1 on Dec 2, 2009 20:08:16 GMT -5
I still laugh when I see these covers. I think of when you wrote that the heroes were flying like Blue Angels. That still cracks me up.
Defiant1
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Post by G on Apr 18, 2010 22:58:48 GMT -5
I know this thread is old and the series came out long ago, but about a week ago I bought me an Image United #1 and today I finally sat down and read the damn thing and I got to say, I thought it was a total piece of crap.
I bought it actually with a little hope that 17 years later the talents at Image had fixed some things that irritated me with them so many years ago. Instead, it felt like something any one of us could write. In fact, I feel confident that we could all write better stories than this. This seemed like your best friend new you drew comics and wrote a story he wanted you to draw. But in reality, all he wrote was a fight scene and corny jokes.
I never felt like anything had a reason for happening and I felt nothing was really ever revealed to me. Just seemed to be needless moments throughout the book thrown into a fight with some huge character that could shoot rockets from it's back. In the end, he gets his head punched off. Along the way we see moments where characters decide whether or not to join the fray and another dumb scene where a father is both scared and proud his son is interviewing to be in Youngblood. There was moments where it seemed like they were try to build something. But I guess the biggest moment is when the Savage Dragon has to leave the scene to be with his kids at home. Pretty corny stuff.
Bad dialogue was joined with bad jokes and the book consisted of mostly pictures in a pose with no background or if there was one it was a city scene with no "normal" people walking around or a room that looked like it came from a video game. But even those backgrounds were rare. I mean, why draw backgrounds? Who needs backgrounds?
This isn't a slam on Image, I don't care who put this out. It just seemed weak and nothing was revealing or explained. It just seemed like they were fighting because........well, just because.
If this is Image United, I'd have to say...stay apart. At least one or two series might be halfway readable, but this group effort to me was a total turd.
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Post by bigw1966 on Apr 19, 2010 10:39:29 GMT -5
not defending them, but from a storytelling standpoint, what would you expect to be revealed in the first issue of a 7 issue series? The issue starts off in the middle of the story so that they can reveal what lead to that moment. Its a popular trope in writing. Tarentino does it in every one of his films. The artwork was alright, it just takes getting used to seeing 7 different art styles in each and every panel. they are up to issue 3 now. I have them in my box until all 7 release before I read them.
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Post by G on Apr 19, 2010 18:30:25 GMT -5
not defending them, but from a storytelling standpoint, what would you expect to be revealed in the first issue of a 7 issue series? The issue starts off in the middle of the story so that they can reveal what lead to that moment. Its a popular trope in writing. Tarentino does it in every one of his films. That would be way too generous a description for that story.
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